Thread

oh, just to clarify… the reason being is to boost first impressions. Not that I’d actually use it. But, it would be nice upon install to have a slick template…

Pxlated can already say that.  *ducks*

HeeHee...
Even in my old age I can out design, and out code (strict, standards compliant, and cross-browser) most of you young farts. Probably can still out party ya too 😊
Now, programming - PHP, etc - ya might have me there.

—————

As to the general theme of this thread...
I agree with Les about hardly anyone using the standard templates. I never do but they were great for learning when I first started with EE. I think the idea of a three set (and nothing else) of beginner, moderate, and advanced could really be helpful. Or blogger, business, advanced. Along with matching tutorials. And a better explanation as to why EE offers only only three for a base install.

The majority of EE users almost always have their own design

As a matter of fact, the templates I adapted to EE when I first migrated, were those I had been using with Movable Type, which were themselves adapted originally from templates I had built from scratch for when I used Blogger. And that was evolved from a static page I made up in a text editor before I’d ever even heard of “blogs.”

Yup. I’m hidebound. My blog today doesn’t look like the static page I adapted for Blogger, but it’s a direct line of descent all the same.

I agree that the default template could use a little “lift”. Though it may not be used, first impressions do count. So why not bring up to 2008 speed (make it “similar” to expressionengine.com).

One thing I think many people actually do use the template for is: a learning tool.
So the template could/should show “best use” of EE tags.

Since EE can do so much more than “mere” blogs, why not offer say 3 basic templates for disection:
- Blog (update current default and keep as THE main default)
- Small Business (Boyinks template comes to mind, since it comes with a manual 😉
- Advanced (Weird Ideas, reverse-relations AJAX, query, PAGES etc.) Least likely to be installed, most likely to be controversially discussed, picked apart and have alternative solutions in Wiki or Forum format.

Knowing that quite likely nobody will use the “exact” templates. But that the EE code behind them it will be used as learning grounds.
So each “template” could have an associated “Manual” describing the features used and reasoning behind them. Even maybe integrate with a Forum topics.

This should give people a direct tangible feel that they are NOT dealing with your standard blogging CMS….

I agree.

If there had been better templates for EE when I first started, I wouldn’t have spent time with WordPress and would be much more familiar with EE by now. Looking at the crappy default templates made it clear that I shouldn’t bother with EE unless I really knew what I was doing. If there was even one template that looked good enough to just set up as a basic blog, I would have done it - and tweaked it until it was more “mine” - and used it to power the sites I set up for friends. Instead, I used WordPress.

Even the current default theme has these superfluous divs just put in place for the extremely basic theme graphics. It seems like someone could have spent the extra time to make a few truly clean, attractive default themes for people just learning so they could tweak it with little effort and learn EE at the same time.

I don’t see why EE couldn’t be both accessible to beginners and extremely flexible. I would have certainly appreciated it, and I would have been willing to purchase product at an earlier date. It seems like the addition of a few modules could turn EE into a direct WordPress competitor, and the experts could just switch those modules off.

While I’m ranting, one click installs and upgrades would certainly be nice too.

That said, I circled back to EE, so maybe the EllisLab people are on the right track.  :cheese:

Sean

If you look at all those wonderful template sites for all the “competitors,” I would bet a million that it’s all community driven (read: freely developed). If EE one-touch templating were that useful to actual EE users, that would have put EE in competition with WordPress and MT. A competition that is primarily chasing commodity (“All templates are the same, all CMS/blogging tools are the same”), not value-added for it’s current (paying) clients.

Is it profitable for EE to spend time (and {human} capital) managing a free template farm that is geared almost exclusively at a specific audience (bloggers) that’s already well-handled elsewhere? Only if those free templates drive greater paying adoption of the value-added part of the business.

Personally, I think EllisLabs is better off spending that capital on the core application and offering greater and more useful features that keeps it on the leading edge of CMS development. EE is not so much a tool, so much as a revelation. That works in EE’s favor, and, honestly, in most EE customer’s favor, since it keeps them focused on paying, profitable customers, and not folks asking for something for nothing for their cat’s website.

I think the post did hit a nerve for some people. And looking over the the responses it seems that there are a few basic agreements.

1) Nobody is defending the current “default/base/initial” view one gets after a fresh install of EE.(remark my cunning exclusion of the word template 😉.
==> We agree the current initial view looks rather hideous.

2) Do initial looks count? It seems that a majority of the posts indicate that first impressions count, shallow (male?) people that we are. Be it to put it on a “CMS to test drive” list, selling it to IT challenged peers, getting the developer saliva flowing with a cool(visible) feature….
==> Nice first view(s) (may) help selling EE.

3) Are the responsible “IT gurus and Web Devs” using the templates? It seems that many an EE convert started off by poking at the template innards of the initial install.
==> The template must look nice from the inside too.
(Redemption for our shallowness?)

Overall:
==> Some compelling reasons to deliver a nice, clean up to date initial template, with a few hot EE tricks up its sleeve maybe.
(I would rather sell a Mercedes, than a Volvo even if the safety features are the same…)

Should we continue this debate?
Who knows? EE2.0 seems likely to bring a new look along with with many of the points above in mind.
Would a nice new look bring some ROI or just make a few people already sold on EE happier?
EllisLab is going to mess up the results of that experiment by including the awesomeness that is the fusion with CI. Not a scientific bone in the lot….messing up statistics like that….really 😉

==> Looks like we’re going to get what we want in a few month anyway.  :coolsmirk:

So, am I to understand that the EE 2.0 release will have a new default template as well? Can only help right?

But at the same time, none of the EE projects I’ve been hired on have ever wanted anything but a custom made template. FWIW.

Just a blatant plug.

I am currently in process of developing a site that will sell ready made EE websites. Not just templates but full on websites similar to what you would find for Joomla or Wordpress. Yes for the majority of you that is akin to blasphemy 😉 But I do think there is a market for EE newbies that would like a leg up on learning EE and old pros that would like to start with a usable site. So if you are interested then head on over to EETemplates.com and sign up to be notified when we launch.

The plan is to launch by the end of July with some free templates with good functionality and some “pro” templates with some really nice features. Let me know what you think….

M.

Hi Marcus,

Sounds like a great idea, well done.

Just signed up. I create all my own templates and have done for years now but definitely interested in seeing anything for ExpressionEngine.

Good luck with everything.

Best wishes,

Mark

Thanks Mark. I am sure it is only a matter of time before others start doing something similar. I just really really am blown away by the functionality of EE and want to show others what it can be used for. I have some ideas that are simple but kinda cool <Marcus breaks arm patting his own back >

M.

Looking forward to what you’ve got cooking there 😉

I remember what I’ve always heard that some of the simplest ideas are usually the best so you go for it!!

Best wishes,

Mark

What’s to stop Ellislab from organising something similar to Textpattern’s Texplate competition?  :coolsmile:

What’s to stop Ellislab from organising something similar to Textpattern’s Texplate competition?  :coolsmile:

We’ve considered something along those lines several times but ultimately I don’t think its a good idea for us. The significant difference being that EllisLab is a commercial entity and I have a feeling people would consider that “spec work” on our part. Good design is not cheap and even if we were to come up with some cool prizes I think the perception would still be that we’re stiffing designers in order to push commercial product. So despite whatever our best intentions might be, I think erring on the side of caution in that regards is wise.

The other reason is that its not a long-term solution. We would rather encourage people like Marcus to develop a solution that would be more stable and adaptable to customer demand than a competition or stock template library that we fund. Our mission is to make an excellent product and provide a good starting point for using it. Making EE “one’s own” is the step that happens after we do our part and that’s where an idea like Marcus is putting together will hopefully find its audience.

I’m certain that Marcus should be on to a winner with what he has got going there.

I personally create all my own templates but a resource like this will be great for new-comers to ExpressionEngine as there are so many people that keep on asking for something like this and keep on complaining that ExpressionEngine doesn’t come with better templates.

Even if there were better templates - personally I think that what you get shows you how it all moulds together so that is a really good thing - it would probably start to get a lot like other CMS sites where everyone uses the best template and doesn’t bother to modify it as it just works but then you start to see the same template everywhere over the web. Probably not the best thing to be showing off a product really 😉

Marcus’ idea though is going to be great and I’m sure he will provide some excellent support too so can’t wait to see what he is cooking up!! 😉

Best wishes,

Mark

The default website is (and my apologies to whoever’s baby I am slapping) an eyesore, and the downloadbable templates for install are stagnant, nobody adds anything. I think it’s that nobody knows just exactly how to package a default site?