Thread

I don’t really have a valid opinion as I’ve never used Ruby, hence my previous comment, but I can’t see you’ll really get very far with your information gathering gberz3, as I don’t think anyone can really see the point in explaining the pros and cons of PHP, to someone who prefers not to use it.

If PHP is part of your development tookit, then CodeIgniter is a nice addition.

Would you consider building a web application in Ruby without using the Rails framework?

Thank you.  I suppose that’s what I was getting at.  I’d still like a bit more information, but I’ll check out the ExpressionEngine;  I’d honestly never heard of it.  I guess my question was an unfair one.  Basically, I would like what “sophistry” suggested I create.  I was hoping something like that already existed.

So the approach in this case isn’t “what can I replace PHP with?”, but more “how can I make PHP better?”.  My approach is generally the former.  Not so much in the sense of dumping everything I try, but in the sense of keeping open to different tech.  Save a bit of a Macintosh zealotry, I have no loyalties.  I only know what I think I know. . . 😉

Thank you for an honest, sane reply.

EDIT… added quote to make context clear:

Ruby sucks for your application - you should have chosen a better tool (even though I know nothing about your particular application) - and you are stupid for using it.

Do I need to elaborate or did I succesfully mirror your “argument” replacing PHP with Ruby?

Wow. . .I’m not sure where to begin with that   *RESET*. . .

I’m not sure if I need to be more PC or what.  I’m not asking for a defense.  I’m really sorry I caught you in such a sensitive state.  I am *ABSOLUTELY*, *GENUINELY*, *100%* interested in why PHP was chosen for this task.

Um… don’t you see, that is how *you* came across in your original post: haughty and contemptuous. You displayed a hardened disdain for PHP and people who use it without even asking what people use it for. Your FoR was “you people are stupid, please tell me why, exactly, are you so stupid.”

I’m not feeling sensitive today, I’m feeling disappointed with the lack of facts in this conversation and the shifting grounds you’ve set up. You have not backed up your claim that Ruby is superior for every dimension of every application. I am *GENUINELY* *ABSOLUTELY* *100%* curious to see an application (building, deploying, maintaining, and scaling) where Ruby outdoes PHP… please show it to me! And I might become a zealot too.

Hi All,
I’m having trouble understanding CodeIgniter’s place in the world.

That was your first question… it sounds like now, you want to change it and engage on a philosophical rather than a nuts-n-bolts level. Why did the original CI developers go with PHP?

Well, I’m a happy CI dev and logically speaking (to address your new question), I actually *couldn’t use it* while using another language. Does that answer your question? CI’s place in the world is that I was able to be productive (taking advantage of my PHP experience) and learn a few things about web architecture along the way.

I tried Ruby and hit all the deployment issues alluded to above. I learned that Ruby was poignant and beautiful and that like a sports car, not really practical for everyday use.

Here’s a link about CDBaby.
http://www.oreillynet.com/ruby/blog/2007/09/7_reasons_i_switched_back_to_p_1.html

Here’s a link about CDBaby.
http://www.oreillynet.com/ruby/blog/2007/09/7_reasons_i_switched_back_to_p_1.html

POINT 1:  Less relevant than the BOLD text would have you believe.  He himself says “Ruby is prettier. Rails has nice shortcuts. But no big shortcuts I can’t code-up myself in a day if needed.”  Why would you want to go coding them if you didn’t have to?  Well, he goes on to make his point less relevant in the “free” programming world when he says “and there were many business reasons to do so.”

POINT 2: Again, not relevant to new projects.  Besides if we all thought that way, we’d still be letting blood and riding in horse and buggies.  In reality, this happens, but it’s not relevant to a discussion about the quality of the language.

POINT 3:  He says “I admire the hell out of the Rails core gang that actually understand every line inside Rails itself. But I don’t. And I’m sure I will never use 90% of it.”  That doesn’t make the other 10% any less powerful or relevant

POINT 4:  PHP in my experience is faster than Ruby, his first true point.

POINT 5: The heading says “IT’S BUILT TO MY TASTES”.  . . .scratch point 5.

POINT 6:  RoR doesn’t prohibit you from using SQL

POINT 7:  While this may be true it doesn’t negate the possibility that the new ‘girlfriend’ is as cool, if not cooler.

And finally, he closes by saying:

“Ok. All that being said, I’m looking forward to using Rails some day when I start a brand new project from scratch, with Rails in mind from the beginning.”

I see what you’re saying with that link, but he also is providing opinion from his FoR.  Again, I was hoping for what “sophistry” was suggesting earlier.  Perhaps something will show up soon.

Um… don’t you see, that is how *you* came across in your original post: haughty and contemptuous.

. . .

Hi All,
I’m having trouble understanding CodeIgniter’s place in the world.

As hard as it may be for you to believe, that was a genuine admission of ignorance.  Perhaps I should have thrown in the proper emoticons or whatever, but it was meant to be more of a “head scratcher” type statement.  One that hopefully would have sparked an open discussion.  This is a “discussion” board, not a “pat everyone on the back that uses whatever the issue at hand’s item is to make them feel special” board.  You come for information and hopefully leave better educated regarding the subject matter.

Listen man…

CI’s place in the world is to provide an easy to use, lightweight, and flexible MVC framework for PHP.  Why use PHP instead of the oh so “elegant” Ruby to build an MVC framework?  Well, there are many answers.  Here are a few…

First, most of us here have been using PHP for years and are quite competent and comfortable using the language.  As you say yourself, there is really nothing one language can do that the other can’t.  If I’m running a business and trying to make money, I don’t have time to learn a whole new language that accomplishes the same tasks as a language I am already familiar with.  So it takes a few less lines to accomplish a task in Ruby… big deal.  If you know the language it flows out naturally and quickly.  Also, don’t forget that you seem to be referencing RoR, a framework that is supposed to make specific tasks easy… have you slugged through the entire source and found the same “elegance” that you find when actually using the framework?  Have you built an app in Ruby as opposed to RoR?  At the end of the day, CI’s goal is very similar to that of RoR… but it is geared specifically for PHP users.  What don’t you get about that?

Second, it is relatively easy and inexpensive to get PHP running on a server compared to RoR.  This is a huge concern if you are trying to meet a budget and a deadline.  At this point in time, PHP is a more practical business solution.

Third, PHP is far more battle tested and has a huge support community.  People use it because it gets things done.  If it sucked, people wouldn’t use it.  That’s the bottom line.

These are just a few.  You said you have extensive experience using PHP so you should know the pros and cons of using the language.  If you really want to learn about CI, I suggest you read the docs.  An experienced user like yourself can burn through them in under 2hrs.  I don’t really have time to respond further because I actually have work to do.

Though…

To say that “having to think in terms of $this->load->view(‘my_view’) is nothing short of mind boggling” is nothing short of mind boggling.  What could more more clear than the sentence “I want this controller instance to load a view named ‘my_view’”?  I imagine RoR does the same thing… it just happens under the hood - you could probably write a hook in CI that automagically loaded the appropriate library based on conventions you set up.

Also, do you wish to explain your statement that it’s “not so much that PHP is incapable, it’s just far less capable by default”?  Sure, Ruby has more advanced OOP constructs… but you can still do MVC in PHP.  RoR is just MVC and a bunch of helper libraries… it can be done in other languages.

BTW, to reference the blog tutorials as proof that RoR is better is completely ridiculous.  I hope you realize that.

BTW, to reference the blog tutorials as proof that RoR is better is completely ridiculous.  I hope you realize that.

That reference was simply to compare apples to apples (i.e. the sample videos on each framework).

Anyway, “because I like it” or “because it makes me comfortable” has already been covered.  As I’ve said a couple of times already, I’m now looking for metrics similar to what sophistry suggested.  I’m interested in Framework-to-Framework comparison.  Development times.  Scaling. Code maintainability. Immediately available tools. Deployment capabilities.

. . .but to humour you. . .

I consider the folks in this community very intelligent and give them more credit than the “just because I’m used to it” frame of mind.  That said, I believe we’ve all gotten off topic comparing PHP to RoR when we should compare CI to RoR or PHP to Ruby.

Before going any further, I’ll state once again, I currently am, and have been for the last 8 years, a steady PHP developer.  My curiosity is based on the fact that PHP, by default, lacks the “whizz-bang magic”, as walemd so elegantly put it, that RoR (or more specifically Ruby) offers.

Many people feel that “you’re the master of the computer and the language” and that “the language should never master you”.  Others think just the opposite.  I’m somewhere in the middle.  I’m absolutely willing to compromise and adapt to new technologies.  As a famous and, at least in my opinion, respectable, developer once said:

“The bizarro world is the one where inertia rules the land and any tool but the one in your hand must be feared or distrusted. . .”

I’m a Python user, I’m a PHP user, I’m a Ruby user.  I do consider myself reasonably educated regarding these languages and, save CI, their associated frameworks.  Given my knowledge (or what I *think* I know) of PHP vs these other languages, I am curious about the level of effort that has gone into CI.  This took time, intelligence, and no doubt patience.  I trust these folks are insightful.  So, the fact that I’m perplexed by the choice either means I’m 1) unintelligent / not insightful or 2) uneducated about some aspect of the language/framework that makes it more suitable for such a task.  In hopes that it’s #2 I posted here.

To say that “having to think in terms of $this->load->view(‘my_view’) is nothing short of mind boggling” is nothing short of mind boggling.  What could more more clear than the sentence “I want this controller instance to load a view named ‘my_view’”?  I imagine RoR does the same thing… it just happens under the hood - you could probably write a hook in CI that automagically loaded the appropriate library based on conventions you set up.

That’s true, and if I were masochistic enough, I suppose could do the same thing in “C” and have it do things “under the hood”.  Or better yet, I could code C++++++.  But the fact of the matter is, C would be an utter pain to do certain things of this nature in, and unfortunately C++++++ doesn’t exist.  Therefore we’re left with PHP and Ruby.  And given my oh so small world view, it would seem that RoR (with Ruby as its foundation) is initially better suited to this task.  More so than Python (and Django).  More so than PHP (and CI).  More so than ASP (and all the .NETs).

It is absolutely 110% possible that I’m wrong.  And it seems I’m being told so.  Now I’d like some info as to “why”.  I’m not looking for acceptance, simply insight.

For the record, and I’m sure at this point it doesn’t matter, I was once anti-RoR.  However, after actually taking the time to use it—and, yes, learn it—I was hooked.  Up to that point, it was all PHP and ASP (as far as the web is concerned) for me.  That’s not to say you should do or should have done the same thing.  But it is to say that all one has to go on is their own FoR and the input of others.  If CI is for some unknown reason (but for similar reasons) the new RoR or better at a given set of tasks, then it is what I’m interested in.

I have my own small business and work with various developers on a regular basis.  It seems that both employees and business owners have a massively unfounded fear of change that has become somewhat of a meme;  “it’s different so I can’t take the time”.  I have found that to be the case *once* in all my time developing.  Granted you shouldn’t just toss out old code or paradigms on a whim, but that doesn’t mean never reconsider.  At what point does a tool become either sufficiently useful to use or sufficiently useless (relative to existing items) to leave?

As for your suggestions, I most certainly will review the docs more fully.

G’nite all.

f$*! it.  I’m done responding to this.

As a note, by “under the hood”, I just meant that DHH had coded it into Rails.  It’s not like the functionality exists natively in Ruby.  So at some point, DHH had to write that method… just like you could write that method as an extension of the CI core.  You have no idea how long it took DHH to code RoR, and it would be naive to think it was all easy and “elegant” on the first try.  That story is part of the strategy he uses to sell Rails and promote his own firm.

I think merit must be measured in the output of “Hello World!” not just “Hello!”.

hi gberz3,

i just found this new search engine (a place where you can type questions and the answers appear in a clickable list) called google. it’s really cool.

i typed the words comparison Ruby PHP and it got me a few interesting tidbits.

i encourage you to add google to your mosaic hotlist.

cheers. 😊

google? this tool is amazing! nice found sophistry!!!

for lazzy person, http://www.cmswire.com/images/bray-intrinsics.png
more information: http://www.cmswire.com/cms/industry-news/php-vs-java-vs-ruby-000887.php

hi gberz3,

i just found this new search engine (a place where you can type questions and the answers appear in a clickable list) called google. it’s really cool.

i typed the words comparison Ruby PHP and it got me a few interesting tidbits.

i encourage you to add google to your mosaic hotlist.

cheers. 😊

hi gberz3,

i just found this new search engine (a place where you can type questions and the answers appear in a clickable list) called google. it’s really cool.

i typed the words comparison Ruby PHP and it got me a few interesting tidbits.

i encourage you to add google to your mosaic hotlist.

cheers. 😊

Wow, you’re right. . .but you know what?  Those are pretty much opinion pieces, and most of them are leaning toward Ruby and Rails.  Ya see, unlike folks like yourself, I’m not interested in pats on the back for something I’m already doing.  I’m interested in new knowledge.

Speaking of “new knowledge”, I’m about 1/3 the way through the docs, and have already found some issues.  Poor grammar and misspellings aside (as that has zero weight regarding quality of the framework), the documentation mentions that although CI will run using PHP5, it does not support or exploit any of the features of PHP5.  How long has PHP5 been available now?  About 3 years, not including the beta period?  That’s one quarter of the life of the entire language.  Is that about right? This again “because of fear of alienating people”.  See the trend?

Anyway, if you guys come across metrics, please feel free to post;  as this is not a peeing competition and I’d genuinely be interested in using CI.  My issue, again, is the fact that I *am* familiar with PHP not that “I’m just comfortable with Ruby” and knowing what I know, I’d like some input about CI.  No more, no less.

Regards!  😉

You ‘win’ gberz. You’re really clever!

See you then,

Bye…

may I recommend your next port of call is the ZF forum. I’m sure you could successfully irritate those guys too.

Carve another notch in your virtual bedpost!!