Thread

2-3 months is not enough time to become proficient in any language. Sure you will have done a few things, maybe one project, but it takes a longer period than that to become an expert in your field. Some people say it takes 10 years…

PHP performs better, but you know or like using Ruby so keep using it. Its pointless to argue with you about something you enjoy using better. You can keep going until you find something else you think is better.

Or you can keep going unto someone locks a thread…. :D

Are we done with this yet? Its not a ROR vs CI forum its a CI forum and I think we call all do with less flag waving.

In the end, its the best tool for the job that gets used… as a former member of the army I can attest to there being many ways to accomplish the same thing, and I definitely have my preferences, however they all work and they all have a place and time.

Maybe I am getting jaded, but this argument (not a thread anymore) has run it’s course.

-Lee

In the end, its the best tool for the job that gets used… as a former member of the army I can attest to there being many ways to accomplish the same thing, and I definitely have my preferences, however they all work and they all have a place and time.

You’re right, it’s *not* about RoR.  But no one seems to have answered any follow-on questions.  Granted, the last question was a bit philosophical, but was legit nonetheless.  People keep saying what you said about “each job has the right tool, etc, etc, etc”, but then I get trash talk about how PHP is better than Ruby.  Yes, PHP does perform better than Ruby in many instances, but does CI perform better than Rails, or Django, or Symfony?  And why does “the right tool” always seem to come back to PHP, and not Python, or Ruby, or ASP (I can’t believe I said that last one, but I did)?  And, yes, it is a CI board, but it’s still a *discussion* board.  If you’re not willing the answer the questions in a straightforward manner, then don’t.  But it is noteworthy that there isn’t as much trepidation or irritation in those other boards (even the PHP related ones) when the same questions are posed.  I know, I know. . .everyone is different. 😉

I never said I was a “professional” with RoR in 3 months;  I simply said “proficient”.  There is a *HUGE* difference.  That said—and I can’t believe I must ask again—what does it take for someone that isn’t willing to check out another framework to actually check that framework out?  Perhaps I’m in a somewhat more advantageous position being able to pick and chose to some extent, but I fail to believe the freelance or corporate world has really gotten to the point where everyone must hold on to their current tool for dear life for fear of never eating again.

Well, I’m tired, and drained from dealing with these dreadful machines all day (let the reader use discernment).  Perhaps I’ve simply misread and misunderstood everything most have been saying.  Or maybe I’ll wake up tomorrow and have more sensible answers (which there have been);  not a defense, mind you, simply answers.  Either will work.  G’nite all.

Ok…

And why does “the right tool” always seem to come back to PHP, and not Python, or Ruby, or ASP

So I run a small development firm consisting of myself and 3 others with numerous contractors. What makes something the right tool is having the ability to deploy it within the set time line and budget, period. Now what defines whether I can do that or not depends on the skill set of the contractor at the time. If that person happens to know Django inside and out and this is a hosted solution I will gladly deploy that option.

If the client is hosting it on their server Django is out, I do not want to waste time setting up or supporting someone else’s server.

Yes, PHP does perform better than Ruby in many instances, but does CI perform better than Rails, or Django, or Symfony?

That prior statement is flawed, the speed of an application is determined by the skill level of the programmer. Most programmers will not approach the ceiling of a framework’s capacity. There are many race car metaphors for this involving supercars driven by professional vs novice drivers… the slower car driven by the professional almost always wins.

what does it take for someone that isn’t willing to check out another framework to actually check that framework out?

You can lead a horse to water but you cant make it drink

Perhaps I’m in a somewhat more advantageous position being able to pick and chose to some extent, but I fail to believe the freelance or corporate world has really gotten to the point where everyone must hold on to their current tool for dear life for fear of never eating again.

Why fix what isn’t broke? I can speak to this personally.

A few years ago I was freelancing full time and I had the opportunity to take on a project that was partially written in another language, I thought about it and at one time considered it a way to be paid to learn. When I budgeted my time for that project and accounted for the learning curve, I declined the project.

When I calculated total billable hours I was able to take on three projects in the language I knew in the same time frame and in the end be more profitable. I have not encountered a project that specifically requested that language again. On that note I have never had an RFP come across my desk, and I receive quite a few a month, that has stipulated RoR as a requirement or option; however almost all stipulate PHP.

Basically whats faster and more comfortable for you, in the end will be the two factors that will decide if you are profitable or not. Whatever that language may be.

-Lee

You’re right, it’s *not* about RoR.  But no one seems to have answered any follow-on questions.  Granted, the last question was a bit philosophical, but was legit nonetheless.  People keep saying what you said about “each job has the right tool, etc, etc, etc”, but then I get trash talk about how PHP is better than Ruby.  Yes, PHP does perform better than Ruby in many instances, but does CI perform better than Rails, or Django, or Symfony?  And why does “the right tool” always seem to come back to PHP, and not Python, or Ruby, or ASP (I can’t believe I said that last one, but I did)?

The “right tool” means a lot of things. The right tool to insert a nail in a wooden wall is an electric nail pistol. But most of the time you have limitations, so the right tool may not be an electric nail pistol. I’ll answer some of the questions:
1. Why not Django? I don’t know python and I don’t have the time to learn it
2. Why not Symphony? I don’t like to use PEAR (personal taste)
3. Why not RoR? Not so many hosting options

  And, yes, it is a CI board, but it’s still a *discussion* board.  If you’re not willing the answer the questions in a straightforward manner, then don’t.  But it is noteworthy that there isn’t as much trepidation or irritation in those other boards (even the PHP related ones) when the same questions are posed.  I know, I know. . .everyone is different. 😉

That logic should be applied the other way around. If you don’t like the answer you get, don’t post the same question over and over again. If it’s a “discussion” board and you seem there is no feedback at the other and than you should not think as if this is a “discussion” board and decide not to participate in “discussions”.

I never said I was a “professional” with RoR in 3 months;  I simply said “proficient”.  There is a *HUGE* difference.  That said—and I can’t believe I must ask again—what does it take for someone that isn’t willing to check out another framework to actually check that framework out?  Perhaps I’m in a somewhat more advantageous position being able to pick and chose to some extent, but I fail to believe the freelance or corporate world has really gotten to the point where everyone must hold on to their current tool for dear life for fear of never eating again.

That is another reason I chose CI. I wanted a framework that will let me know what is doing and not to just let me code very fast. I’m still not using ActiveRecord pattern because I haven’t understood it completely and I’m not satisfied by the library. If being “proficient” would have been my primary concert I probably would have.

Well, I’m tired, and drained from dealing with these dreadful machines all day (let the reader use discernment).  Perhaps I’ve simply misread and misunderstood everything most have been saying.  Or maybe I’ll wake up tomorrow and have more sensible answers (which there have been);  not a defense, mind you, simply answers.  Either will work.  G’nite all.

In my opinion the answers you received were decent. It’s just that these “debates” were already settled in the sense that most of the people agreed to disagree. After the RoR burst these discussions went to different stages: interesting (intelectually challenging), entertaining (let’s see how beautiful we can rewrite the old arguments) and now they are just… no kind way to say this 😊 ... trolling.

I prefer a 35’ Bass Hunter with a 100HP outboard Johnson along with 100lbs test line and a Wedding Ring lure for trolling myself. Seems to be the right combo for me for Trout, now the 100hp engine maybe over kill, however I like to go tubing when the fishing is slow.

I prefer a 35’ Bass Hunter with a 100HP outboard Johnson along with 100lbs test line and a Wedding Ring lure for trolling myself. Seems to be the right combo for me for Trout, now the 100hp engine maybe over kill, however I like to go tubing when the fishing is slow.

Well I got 1.5 days to do something so I’m going back to my bloated widget framework I’m always saying I’m gonna leave to spew some CRUD.

I prefer a 35’ Bass Hunter with a 100HP outboard Johnson along with 100lbs test line and a Wedding Ring lure for trolling myself. Seems to be the right combo for me for Trout. . .

You too. . .?!?! 😉

In my opinion the answers you received were decent. It’s just that these “debates” were already settled in the sense that most of the people agreed to disagree. After the RoR burst these discussions went to different stages: interesting (intelectually challenging), entertaining (let’s see how beautiful we can rewrite the old arguments) and now they are just… no kind way to say this 😊 ... trolling.

Not trolling by any means, but comments of that nature certainly seem to incite it.  😉  In all seriousness though, thank you for your previous answers to my questions.

Ok…

Yes, PHP does perform better than Ruby in many instances, but does CI perform better than Rails, or Django, or Symfony?

That prior statement is flawed, the speed of an application is determined by the skill level of the programmer. Most programmers will not approach the ceiling of a framework’s capacity. There are many race car metaphors for this involving supercars driven by professional vs novice drivers… the slower car driven by the professional almost always wins.

You may be right, but I don’t believe it is flawed at all.  There are certainly tangible “standardized” tests that run the gamut of a framework’s capabilities.  (Hopefully I’ll actually get a chance to run some of them before the decade is out.)  That’s really what I’m looking for in regard to that.  That said, once put into practice, it absolutely depends on the programmer’s skill

Why fix what isn’t broke? I can speak to this personally.

Why not?  As a bit of insight into my potentially twisted mindset, I tend to approach most systems with the idea that they can be improved upon.  Surely many brain cycles have been wasted in the past in the process, but, at least in my mind, constant exposure, expanding, and what could arguably be considered “improvement” is imperative.

A few years ago I was freelancing full time and I had the opportunity to take on a project that was partially written in another language, I thought about it and at one time considered it a way to be paid to learn. When I budgeted my time for that project and accounted for the learning curve, I declined the project.

When I calculated total billable hours I was able to take on three projects in the language I knew in the same time frame and in the end be more profitable. I have not encountered a project that specifically requested that language again. On that note I have never had an RFP come across my desk, and I receive quite a few a month, that has stipulated RoR as a requirement or option; however almost all stipulate PHP.

Basically whats faster and more comfortable for you, in the end will be the two factors that will decide if you are profitable or not. Whatever that language may be.

Thank you.  That’s what I was asking in regards to my original last question;  the “what makes it work for you?” or “what is your approach to even considering new systems or workflows?” factor.

are we all trying to get a last word in? seriously why is this thread continuing…

Yeah, guys, I think this thread has run its course and seems almost to be looping now.  My feeling is it is like comparing two different kitchens.  In either one you can make a sandwich once you find where things are located.  However, one kitchen might have better appliances for running a bakery while another might be better for dinner parties.  Either kitchen could do those tasks, but there are just certain attributes in each that make one or the other easier.  Further, if you are more comfortable in a certain kitchen, you can do things faster and better in it.  If you have used both kitchens for a long period of time, then you know which one you wish to use for what tasks.

CodeIgniter was written because Rick and I had been in the PHP kitchen for a couple years and had already stocked it with some nice appliances from ExpressionEngine.  People use it because they like the way our kitchen is set up or they known the appliances or it just makes sense to them. 

Most modern programming languages have similar capabilities and really using one often comes down to a personal preference or external demands (like working on a certain server or with certain people).  Thanks for all your thoughts, but let us move on for now.