Thread

Which is a bunch of crap. Seriously, with RoR it is not like Poof this extremely complex web app (Twitter) is done overnight. Everything takes time. A experienced PHP programmer is not going to take THAT much longer, if that is even a true statement. There is NO such evidence backing up a statement like that, RoR saves you money in the long run because its such a cost saver on development ... thats just RoR fans trying to think of reasons to switch away from already established languages because they don’t have any good reasons, but want people to use their language.

Which is a bunch of crap.
. . .
There is NO such evidence backing up a statement like that, RoR saves you money in the long run because its such a cost saver on development ... thats just RoR fans trying to think of reasons to switch away from already established languages because they don’t have any good reasons, but want people to use their language.

As I said, I think Alex gives a good interview at http://www.radicalbehavior.com/5-question-interview-with-twitter-developer-alex-payne/.  He seemed to give pretty straightforward answers.  As far as proof, I believe that all the 37signals apps, Shopify, and Twitter are sufficient medium to large-scale proof.

Per the development estimates, you may very well be right in calling BS, but it must be a fair comparison in that you compare a skilled PHP+framework developer with an equally skilled Ruby+framework, or Python+framework developer.

As an aside, it’s been established that it *absolutely* comes down to what is best for the job, but at what point and how often are those tools evaluated and re-evaluated? 

I recently declined two contracts based on a question that I asked (and to be fair, a combination of rate negotiation).  One of them basically insisted on using ASP and .NET.  When I asked them why they said “because it used MS technologies”.  So, I played devil’s advocate for a couple more “why’s” and they had no answer.  I explained to them other options (including PHP) and they still declined.  Based on the rates they were willing to pay, I could have saved a great deal of time using PHP.  But in the end they unreasonably wanted MS for x-dollars, so I declined.

Obviously it’s all up to preference, but I choose not to work in an environment that staunchly sticks to, yet doesn’t fully understand why it uses what it uses to the exclusion of other tech.

Perhaps that’s a luxury (or failing depending on your PoV) I have that others lack.  Still, worth considering, no?  *shrug*

Anyway, back to the metrics!

EDIT:  That 5th paragraph isn’t a shot at this particular community, simply that mindset in general development/business.  I personally am in a constant state of re-evaluation.  Good or bad?  Who knows. . .

Well good for you! ASP + .NET is crap!

I think thats something PHP and RoR developers can finally agree on 😊

When I think about what if MS released a Vista Server Edition it makes me roflmao.

Fair enough.  As a bit of F-my-I, what did you use *before* you came to PHP, and what about PHP made you decide to give it a try?

I chose PHP a in 1999 because it was either PHP or Perl… if you’ve ever programmed in Perl, you know why I chose PHP.

I chose PHP a in 1999 because it was either PHP or Perl… if you’ve ever programmed in Perl, you know why I chose PHP.

Ahh, so was PHP your first “web” and/or “scripting” language?  I guess my line of questioning is moot then.  I was basically trying to get at what brought you from, say, ASP, to PHP.  For me it was the speed, cost, cross-compatibility (those people actually expect me to stick with IIS? I mean, come on), and overall syntax.

I came to Perl and PHP in 1999-2000, but started heavily using PHP around 2001.  I was a PHP-head, even deciding to use CLI for many tasks (although I must hand it to Perl as far as those tasks were concerned).  In my experience though, Perl was faster, had amazing “RegEx"ing, etc.  However, because of the “ease of use” factor of PHP, I kept with it.

Then around 2003 I came to Python and began using it daily for work.  I nearly “dropped” Perl.  Python had lovely syntax, acceptable speed, and, at the time I was working heavily with XML, found that Python had unbelievable potential as far as XML was concerned.

That, in turn, led me to Ruby.  Ruby had still prettier syntax, and could handle specific tasks like nobody’s business.  Not to mention the fact that working with all objects was actually fun and useful.  And, while ruby was markedly slower on my Dual G4 533MHz tower, the difference was less discernible on my PowerBook, and nearly indiscernible on my Athlon AM2 X2 4600+

. . .which, save a few unnecessary-to-bring-up languages and a bit of backtracking to check languages I’d left, brings me to this point.  I had what I feel is a reasonable progression from where I was to where I am.  Granted my process was likely a bit more sporadic than most, but I feel that I am a great deal more productive now than I was in 1999, or 2001, or 2003.  And I’ll likely be even more productive in the future with PHP++, or Python++, or whatever is available then.  Yes, I am a better programmer now, but I feel that, generally, language features improve markedly over time as well.  And yup, there was some “down-time” and a few “learning curves”, but that’s going to be the case with anything.

Thoughts?

EDIT:  Oh, and thoughts on those articles. . .?

Hey Perl is great. I like it.

Plus if you got some crazy programming project like importing data from a 20 yr old file, you know there is a CPAN module for it. 😊

EDIT:  Oh, and thoughts on those articles. . .?

Those articles all seem to say that one can successfully run and scale RoR, but at greater effort and cost then with another language such as PHP.  DHH saying that RoR can handle roughly 1/2 the requests per second than PHP is pretty telling.  I think it is funny that he then goes on to say it is no big deal and say that a PHP site that would cost $250 will cost $500 in RoR… wow only $250 more… wrong, more like 100% more and potentially tens to hundreds of thousands dollars more.  I also think it is funny that the authors attempt to justify this cost by citing the cost saved during development and maintenance.  Well what cost is that?  How can you compare a real number to a hypothetical one?  I understand using experience as an indicator… but still it seems ridiculous.  Also, in one of the articles the author compares the development time of RoR (a RAD framework) to PHP (a scripting language).  Well, there are plenty of RAD frameworks built in PHP, and I would bet that an experienced user of one of these frameworks could develop a site in PHP in equal or less time than they could in Rails.  I’m not bashing RoR, I’m just saying that at this point in time there doesn’t seem to be a compelling reason to drop PHP or other development in favor of it and Ruby.

BTW, you keep talking about metrics and analysis but you haven’t posted or referenced any hard data throughout this thread.  All you have done is made rhetorical claims that echo the marketing strategy of 37Signals.  Do you work for them?

Also, there was a kind way to ask your original question.  Instead you chose to be confrontational and pose.  I imagine working with you is a pain in the ass.

I agree with thurting. He said what I said a couple posts ago.

Really it comes down to Bandwagons…

PHP’s wagon is horse drawn, well kept and easy enough for most to drive, but can really haul ass when it needs to get outta dodge… Older, reliable and efficient in ways.

Ruby’s bandwagon is actually a rock stars tour bus filled with booze, strippers and plasma tvs! And they roll around with adoring fans everywhere who cry when they see the bus and throw their underwear, come to think of it, reminds me alot of Milli Vanilli...

Can we dispute something that actually matters now? Like is pluto actually a planet? Or should K-fed keep the kids? Wait!! More importantly! Where does the white go when the snow melts?

-Lee

I wonder why RoR (a framework) is so often compared to PHP (a language).

Let’s debate the pros/cons of apples vs. pot roast.

I wonder why RoR (a framework) is so often compared to PHP (a language).

Let’s debate the pros/cons of apples vs. pot roast.

That’s *exactly* what I said a few posts ago.

BTW, you keep talking about metrics and analysis but you haven’t posted or referenced any hard data throughout this thread.  All you have done is made rhetorical claims that echo the marketing strategy of 37Signals.

Actually, I’ve been *asking* if anyone has metrics.  I never said I had any.  In fact I said I would like to run regressions but currently have no time.  Also, you might want to go back and read post #34.

I imagine working with you is a pain in the ass.

Believe it or not, it’s quite productive, and painless.  😉

One reason PHP is better than Ruby because it has more than one framework to choose from.

cake, symfony and oh yea ... codeigniter.  😉

The PHP frameworks are getting better daily, that is what this site is about. If your not interested in making this PHP framework *better* why bother hanging around going off on how awesome Ruby on Rails is. Your obviously not going to find many people to agree with you.

We all know arguing on the internet is pointless right?

Re-evaluating and upgrading has become an industry in and of itself in today’s tech - its raison d’être. RoR plays nicely into this by preaching the tedious gospel that all that came before has turned to dust. Regardless, any of you could have written an app in either CodeIgniter or RoR by the time this thread is finished. Saving a line of code here or there is nothing compared to the time and money saved by knowledge and experience of using a language and a framework. There’s something called a worklflow. Its purpose is to cut out the wasteful deliberation of always debating what to do next. Sometimes you revise it. But only when the gains are proportionate to the effort invested in the revision. I don’t see that in RoR, since the claimed benefits are not objective even with metrics - RoR is not “better” than CI, with a period. Phantom developers clocking times in frameworks reminds me of the ideal-worker photographs, where lights were attached to limbs in order to trace the most effective path in relation to the machine. I am not that developer.

The PHP frameworks are getting better daily, that is what this site is about. If your not interested in making this PHP framework *better* why bother hanging going off on how awesome Ruby on Rails is. Your obviously not going to find many people to agree with you.

Indeed, and as I said earlier, I’m not looking for acceptance (or converters for that matter), simply insight.  Also, as I said, this is a discussion forum.  This isn’t a “pat everyone on the back” forum.  Sometimes making something “better” involves examining it externally and comparing even if that doesn’t actually mean switching.

And if you read all my posts you’d know that I’ve successfully moved throughout languages, and am simply *currently* involved with Ruby (pun intended).  But I’m also always on the move and not averse to using PHP heavily once again, if the right framework comes along.

We all know arguing on the internet is pointless right?

Haha!  Excellent!