Thread

I suppose where I am coming from is that I hope Facebook (or any other social network) doesn’t become THE web.

I hope that individual websites survive.

The reason I use ExpressionEngine is that it allows me to build sites that don’t look like every other CMS built site.

I see the rise in Social Networks in the same way as Reality TV, it’s cheap, fills hours of time, is painfully banal and pointless.
I don’t watch Reality TV and so I suppose that’s why I don’t “get” Facebook etc.

But I do accept that “Joe public” seems to love Reality TV, and they will probably be swept along with the Social Network hype. It will then be difficult to “sell” a quality website in the same way it is hard to make a quality TV drama.
So perhaps a professionally built website will be viewed as too expensive when you can get as many as you want for free.

People seem to want quantity not quality.

Paul, I detect a bit of concern that mirrors my own.

I suppose where I am coming from is that I hope Facebook (or any other social network) doesn’t become THE web.

It’s not likely to, but… for many users FB may be the most prominent part of internet to them, though I suspect that FB cannot provide as much rich content as is available through the web already. AOL tried. It didn’t work.

I hope that individual websites survive.

Frankly, there’s no question that they’ll survive. My question is, “Will they prosper.” And, what will be the tools of choice for creating, developing, building, maintaining such sites in the years to come?

The reason I use ExpressionEngine is that it allows me to build sites that don’t look like every other CMS built site.

Precisely. And EE does that quite well in terms of layout capabilities. What EE lacks are all those integrated, communication oriented, bells and whistles available via the Facebooks of the world.

I see that as both a problem and an opportunity.

I see the rise in Social Networks in the same way as Reality TV, it’s cheap, fills hours of time, is painfully banal and pointless.
I don’t watch Reality TV and so I suppose that’s why I don’t “get” Facebook etc.

Here, here!! Fragmentation of the masses. Some fragments are larger than others.

But I do accept that “Joe public” seems to love Reality TV, and they will probably be swept along with the Social Network hype. It will then be difficult to “sell” a quality website in the same way it is hard to make a quality TV drama. So perhaps a professionally built website will be viewed as too expensive when you can get as many as you want for free. People seem to want quantity not quality.

I consider it hype, too, though I recognize that a large number of people, to one extent or another, are engaged in social networks. Your concern about building websites for free via point and click vs. hand crafted by EE professionals is shared, and a concern for all of us here. If EE loses business to such phenomenon (and most business lost is the amount that makes the difference between profit and loss) what happens to EE? We invest a lot of time and effort learning, using, evangelizing, supporting EE, so it’s important to ensure that the entity, the tool we use, prospers and perpetuates itself.

Related to another tree on this thread, I see more of a danger to EE’s CMS business model because of Facebook than open source CMS apps.

Inter-connectivity between networks and portability of a users data across platfoms (log-in, comments, freinds, etc) is the new internet currency and being able to plug into that is essential.

I realize that EE might take a stance on adding a Facebook membership module like they do with supporting a wizywig editor (eg TinyMCE or FCk Editor) or integration with popular forums outside of their own forum module, they simply can’t spend the time supporting another company’s services, it’s better left to the community to support those requests. But, adding a first party membership integration with Facebook would position itself as a leader in this area. 

Being the first to offer something like this out of the box is the type of thing that turns heads at the Tech blogs and makes developers realize, yes, I do want to promote & leverage a massive user base and features to my clients if its easy to do—CMS’ like Wordpress require hacks and such to do it.

There may be a 3rd party module coming out soon for EE & Facebook membership but I would think this is one of those times when the benefit to a company to produce it themselves outweighs the support headache and the energy needed to track the direction of another company.

I hope that individual websites survive.

They will. The idea behind the social web to me is that everything is more connected—and your data - your comments - your profile on one website simply goes to the next one you visit. It’s not about Facebook becoming THE Internet, its just that’s its emerging as one of the more popular as your digital ID—it’s becoming a de facto standard. Sure, it could become a larger portal itself for all things media related but Yahoo was supposed to embody that idea a few years back and look how it is doing these days.

Inter-connectivity between networks and portability of a users data across platfoms (log-in, comments, freinds, etc) is the new internet currency and being able to plug into that is essential.

Amen. Well said. And among the CMS apps of notoriety, which ones do that well?

I realize that EE might take a stance on adding a Facebook membership module like they do with supporting a wizywig editor (eg TinyMCE or FCk Editor) or integration with popular forums outside of their own forum module, they simply can’t spend the time supporting another company’s services, it’s better left to the community to support those requests. But, I adding a first party membership integration with Facebook would position itself as a leader in this area.

The key there is understanding the value and issues with modules (and other add on components). If EE develops it, maintains it, supports it, and it becomes a strong reason for developers to choose EE over other CMS apps, great. If EE leaves it to the 3rd party community, it may suffer, never develop appropriately, suffer from sporadic support, and so on.

I’m in favor of a strong, vibrant, dynamic 3rd party community for add on products. EE can’t do everything. It isn’t economically feasible.

However, the 3rd party add on community carries inherent risks for site developers, especially when it comes to support, ongoing development, upgrades, etc. Joomla, WordPress, Drupal, and others have truckloads of 3rd party add ons, many, if not most, of them are craptacular in nature. Choose wisely.

Being the first to offer something like this out of the box is the type of thing that turns heads at the Tech blogs and makes developers realize, yes, I do want to promote & leverage a massive user base and features to my clients if its easy to do—CMS like Wordpress require hacks and such to do it.

I’m in total agreement.

There may be a 3rd party module coming out soon for EE & membership but I would think this is one of those times when the benefit to a company to produce it themselves outweighs the support headache and the energy needed to track the direction of another company.

I think so, too. It’s probably not at all unlike EE’s forums. EE’s forums module is rock solid, though not with as many bells and whistles as, say, vBulletin, though it doesn’t have to be. Still, can EE afford, given that the Forums module sells far less than EE, to provide the ongoing development to keep it a viable, competitive solution?

Which is more valuable to EE and customers—an integrated forums module, or a membership bridge to a number of other stand alone forums apps? And, which is more valuable to EE and customers—a 3rd party module which integrates with the Facebooks of the world, or an EE built and supported module which does the same?

There are other trends, too. 3rd party Comments and Polls/Survey apps. I’m looking at those for some sites, as opposed to using EE’s components, because the feature set is lengthy, interconnectivity is improving, and the cost of implementation is low.

And for membership it doesn’t have to simply be an and/or proposition where a developer has to decide I only want to use Facebook as the login/membership OR EE as such—it can be a hybrid. For those without a Facebook ID - create a login here, but if you already have a Facebook Id - use it.

I can’t tell you how often I pick Pay Pal rather than entering my credit card information to make a purchase for something. And before Pay Pal, it was the website that would offer to hold onto my credit card info for convenience, and to encourage a return visit, but that option really isn’t one for me any more if a company offers Pal Pal. And if all things are equal between websites, I usually gravitate toward the one that offers pal pal.

Amen. Well said. And among the CMS apps of notoriety, which ones do that well?

No idea. I’ve always been an EE advocate and will be going forward and so have spent much less time reviewing alternate CMS—I just trust that EE’s history of making the right decisions will mean they will continue to do so. But, I’ve had to spend a *lot* of time this past year utilizing social media websites to promote high profile clients and its really left an indelible impression how important social media is to the direction of web development and is such an enormous part of all emerging trends because it encourages the use of portable data.

I guess I’m suggesting that the lesson here is that a closed network will not be as successful as those that take advantage of popular open networks. Will EE consider opening itself up directly to plug into some of these opportunities—will it adapt to these emerging trends? I hope so.

I’ve always been an EE advocate and will be going forward and so have spent much less time reviewing alternate CMS—I just trust that EE’s history of making the right decisions will mean they will continue to do so.

Me, too, though I’ve looked a few others and don’t see anyone moving quickly to take advantage of this “opportunity.” You’ve identified what is likely to be a trend—add ons that run on all CMS apps (ala PollDaddy, Intense Debate, et al)—only further extended by Facebook connectivity.

But, I’ve had to spend a *lot* of time this past year utilizing social media websites to promote high profile clients and its really left an indelible impression how important social media is to the direction of web development and is such an enormous part of all emerging trends because it encourages the use of portable data.

The two most important words in this whole, lengthy, orderly, and intense thread—“portable data.”

I guess I’m suggesting that the lesson here is that a closed network will not be as successful as those that take advantage of popular open networks. Will EE consider opening itself up directly to plug into some of these opportunities—will it adapt to these emerging trends? I hope so.

Ditto. That’s why we watch the trends. Those on the bleeding edge often need bandages, but those who spot emerging trends can also spot opportunities.

My concern over “Portable Data” is keeping control of the access to it.

I am keen to make data portable, but am also aware that sometimes you don’t want to share it.

I manage/develop the site of a National Sports Association and there are responsibilities in maintaining the integrity and quality of the data.
It is not a personal blog and the information it contains is expected to be “Official”. I even had resistance to allowing comments to be posted in case they were interpreted as being the views of the association, so we are selective about which posts can be commented on.

The use of a common membership ID sounds sensible, but how do you manage the users and the access restrictions that you may place on some data?

I suspect you wouldn’t want to be able to use your Facebook login for your online banking, so how far down the security ladder would you accept a single login?

Slightly off topic, but related to sharing data.
The PayPal example sounds sensible and I do it myself, but in the UK there has just been a warning about the downside of using PayPal (and Amazon).
In the UK, credit card companies are jointly liable for any failure to supply a product or service purchased on a credit card if it’s over £100. So if the company you purchased from goes bust you can claim from the credit card company. But with PayPal your credit card company pays PayPal not the supplier, so you are not covered, similar when Amazon uses a 3rd party to supply the goods.

The use of a common membership ID sounds sensible, but how do you manage the users and the access restrictions that you may place on some data?

Paul, exactly, and yet another good reason why FB may be important but not dominate.

I suspect you wouldn’t want to be able to use your Facebook login for your online banking, so how far down the security ladder would you accept a single login?

And again.

The PayPal example sounds sensible and I do it myself, but in the UK there has just been a warning about the downside of using PayPal (and Amazon). In the UK, credit card companies are jointly liable for any failure to supply a product or service purchased on a credit card if it’s over £100. So if the company you purchased from goes bust you can claim from the credit card company. But with PayPal your credit card company pays PayPal not the supplier, so you are not covered, similar when Amazon uses a 3rd party to supply the goods.

I’m not sure how it’s handled in the US, but the liability for credit card fraud and online purchases is limited, and the limit isn’t much (I think it’s $50).

Oh, and I hate using PayPal—to buy and as a merchant.

My concern over “Portable Data” is keeping control of the access to it.

This is one reason I ruled out using the new Facebook Comments widget for the time being as it appears that Facebook essentially owns that data, the comment features limited, and moderation abilities bare bones. So, I looked at Intense Debate and Disqus as each had the ability to export the comments if you decide to go on to a different platform for comments. Disqus and JS-Kit both have Facebook Connect abilities. And these types of commenting systems do have moderation abilities—in fact most of them have the ability for users to flag inappropriate comments. We’re you aware that Obama used EE for change.gov and outsourced comments to Intense Debate: http://change.gov/page/content/discusshealthcare.

The use of a common membership ID sounds sensible, but how do you manage the users and the access restrictions that you may place on some data?

I believe (I haven’t seen Facebook connect used for membership on an EE website yet) that the Facebook ID is essentially associated with an EE member ID and so the same restriction you have in place for normal EE members goes for Facebook access once they have logged in. Here more info on a 3rd party Facebook integration with EE.

I suspect you wouldn’t want to be able to use your Facebook login for your online banking, so how far down the security ladder would you accept a single login?

This is maybe against online security best practives but I tend to personally use two types of user/pass right now. One for banking and is my private password. The other is a common password for all other websites I visit regularly. I don’t think you ever want to use your common login for websites that deal with sensitive material that could directly impact your wallet, etc. I’m thinking anytime an HTTPS url is used, that’s when you use your private login.

if the company you purchased from goes bust you can claim from the credit card company. But with PayPal your credit card company pays PayPal not the supplier, so you are not covered, similar when Amazon uses a 3rd party to supply the goods.

I’m just kind of lazy in general when it comes to online payment and take the path of least resistance - but when it comes to big ticket items I shop with the idea of protecting my investment and getting the best deal.

Just read this article on techradar.com:

MySpace: Social networking is the new search
The growth of content on the web has meant that users are using social networks rather than search engines to find new and exciting content, according to Anthony Lukom, Managing Director, MySpace UK.

I obviously need to get out more, or should that be stay in more!

It’s true for me…I start searches on Twitter now (“Hey - does anyone know about ___”).  Not instant results like Google, but much better….

...according to Anthony Lukom, Managing Director, MySpace UK.

Uh huh. Sure.

The guy who invested tens of millions in Palm says their new Pre will make Apple’s iPhone users switch en mass. Uh huh. Sure. Steve Ballmer says the iPhone will never get significant market share (against Windows Mobile). Uh huh. Sure.

Where are the numbers?

Assume that Twitter, FaceBook, MySpace et al are now being used for search by their respective members. Where are the numbers? For example, how many internet users Google each day. How much is that number dropping and over what period of time due to users searching to search on the trendy sites instead?

If 12 people use Twitter today to search, and 24 use it tomorrow, some Twitter/FB/MySpace PR hack will point out that they’re growing faster than Google for search.

Uh huh. Sure.

This is what I don’t get.
You tweet: “Hey - does anyone know about ___” and then one or several of your followers reply.
Now I appreciate that some of those answers could be very good, but it doesn’t seem a very efficient use of their time or yours.
It must take up time for people to read all your tweets, most of which may not be relevant to them.

I have been to the Twitter site numerous times after hearing people rave about it, but every time I look at it in detail I loose the urge to sign-up. I will go now and sign-up and try it out.

I am going to a “Marketing & Web 2.0 Workshop” (Run by the Scottish Highlands and Islands Enterprise for free) on Thursday, so it will be interesting to hear their advice.

RonnieMc, I agree, but it is the hype that Joe Public is being fed and they are signing up by the million to jump on the bandwagon.