Thread

Generally its been fine.  But I HATE the new tabs.  They drove me nuts till I realized I could turn them back to normal.  I drag and rearrange my tabs a lot so the combination of the small tab dragging target with the new behavior was just too much.

Otherwise its made little impact on how I use Safari which is good in my book.

Ditto!

it’s a little more logical for them to be on top of the window, encompassing the address bar, than below it.

I agree with this statement too and one would think logic would improve usability, but I’m afraid in this circumstance it doesn’t.

1.) Dragging and reorganizing tabs is a major pita
2.)  Having to mouse-over a tab, look for the close icon, mouse-over and click to close is a lot of thinking.
      2b.) Cycling through tabs has been buggy.

I’m starting to like the new “Top Sites” start page.  When switched to the CoverFlow view it becomes useless.

All else passes my test so far.

I absolutely LOVE the new tabs.

Safari 4’s tabs take a little getting used to (bad habits are hard to break), but become more useful within a few days of heavy use.

Why?

They’re where they should be, cascading left to right, and top to bottom. In most of my Safari windows I’ll have six to 10 tabs open and running. In Safari 3.x, the foremost browser window would obscure the tabs and windows behind. No more. Open a Safari 4 window, open 10 tabs in the window. Then open another window and repeat. ALL 20 tabs are visible below the menu bar, and any single page is a mere click away. Freakin’ awesome. You can NOT do that in Safari 3.x.

The comparisons of Safari 4 Windows to Google Chrome are off base. Chrome’s windows are built to run applications, therefore, they handle controls differently (per window). I suspect Safari may get that treatment at some point in the future, but it doesn’t matter much until there are plenty of browser apps available.

Safari 4’s rendering speed is most notable, whatever the benchmark, Mac or Windows.

It took me longer to get used to the tabs than any other feature. Re-ordering the tabs by using the ‘grabber’ seems like extra effort, but it’s a nit. The + button to add a tab is probably good for average users. The tab close button is an improvement in usability. Clicking the button to close tabs then more tabs still requires the mouse pointer to move.

Top Sites is total eye candy, but I suspect that average users will like it. Simplicity rules. Ditto for Cover Flow in History, though I find myself actually using History now because I can scroll backwards and identify a site visually.

Overall, well done. Did I mention that it’s fast??

The new tabs are great on the Mac, but terrible on XP, since the title bar is very narrow and there’s not much difference between active and inactive tabs. The increased speed is great.

Don’t like that they’ve moved the reload button though. I keep looking for it in the upper left.

I absolutely LOVE the new tabs.

Safari 4’s tabs take a little getting used to (bad habits are hard to break), but become more useful within a few days of heavy use.

Why?

They’re where they should be, cascading left to right, and top to bottom. In most of my Safari windows I’ll have six to 10 tabs open and running. In Safari 3.x, the foremost browser window would obscure the tabs and windows behind. No more. Open a Safari 4 window, open 10 tabs in the window. Then open another window and repeat. ALL 20 tabs are visible below the menu bar, and any single page is a mere click away. Freakin’ awesome. You can NOT do that in Safari 3.x.

I agree with Ronnie.  I love the new tabs as well.  I think the aversion to them is just a matter of drastic change from what we’re all accustomed to.  But, as RonnieMC says, it’s far more intuitive and usable (for me, anyway).

I hope they don’t decide to take them out because of all the negative feedback they’re getting.  Perhaps, they should make it a more visible preference instead of a hidden one.

I hope they don’t decide to take them out because of all the negative feedback they’re getting.  Perhaps, they should make it a more visible preference instead of a hidden one.

It’s New Tool Syndrome™ for me.

Features that change drastically from a previous comfort zone usually provide, ta da, discomfort. For awhile, at least. At first, the new tabs in Safari were very disconcerting. They were in the wrong place. They looked different. They required thought, consideration, extra effort. Think about it. Almost anything new or anything that replaces something old goes through similar steps.

However, in this case, after using the new tabs for nearly a week (and with fewer crashes than in Safari 3.x), I hope they stay, too. They’re better in every way than the old tabs (except for the ‘comfort zone’ which improves within a few days anyway).

Users make noise for a variety of reasons. Often when something known is replaced by something unknown, better or not. Safari’s tab changes have produced a lot of user noise, but point for point, I find it an improvement, which is probably why Apple made the change. The old tab methodology, while comfortable (how did we get along so many years without tabs?), was flawed. FWIW, the Safari 4 tabs are flawed, too, but not as much.

Features that change drastically from a previous comfort zone usually provide, ta da, discomfort. For awhile, at least. At first, the new tabs in Safari were very disconcerting. They were in the wrong place. They looked different. They required thought, consideration, extra effort. Think about it. Almost anything new or anything that replaces something old goes through similar steps.

I respectfully disagree.  This change is far more than discomfort because it’s new.  The location is new and takes some getting used to, but the usability is something worth debating.  It’s so not apple-like to have to mouse over something to find it.  One of the core principles of usability (can’t believe I’m against Apple on this) is reducing the amount of thought that goes into a particular action.  The reasons Jamie and I laid out above are completely valid arguments of why the new tabs are harder to use.

Why would I have to think so much about where to go to close a non-active tab?  Count out loud how many steps it takes to close a tab 😊  The same applies for reorganizing tabs.

This change is far more than discomfort because it’s new.  The location is new and takes some getting used to, but the usability is something worth debating.

And yet I respectfully disagree. The location of the tabs is new, but improved (can see more tabs in more open windows, which is an improvement).

Usability is always debatable because we’re dealing with people who have different likes, dislikes, needs, abilities, etc. Debatability isn’t the issue. Usability, however, seems improved. Less mousing is a good thing.

It’s so not apple-like to have to mouse over something to find it.

Got some examples? We have to mouse over or to everything. Take a Menu Bar menu, for example. Sometimes we click to select a menu, then select an item in the menu, but often do so even when we’re not exactly sure that what we want to do may be there—and when we are sure. Same effort, either way.

One of the core principles of usability (can’t believe I’m against Apple on this) is reducing the amount of thought that goes into a particular action.

Agreed, except when it’s not. Usability is NOT finite or definite—it’s a dynamic. It changes.

Regardless, one must examine the actual thoughts that go into an action, new or otherwise, but especially if the action is new or different.  In the case of the new Safari tabs, my initial thoughts were a combination; look for old tabs, not there, look for new tabs, try to remember what new tabs do, where they are, what the functions are, etc. That’s common. But, with only a little time, some of those thought processes are reduced dramatically.

The reasons Jamie and I laid out above are completely valid arguments of why the new tabs are harder to use.

Valid, logical, coherent arguments can still be wrong, no? Maybe they’re simply harder to use for those not accustomed to handling the dynamics of change as well as others.

Why would I have to think so much about where to go to close a non-active tab?  Count out loud how many steps it takes to close a tab The same applies for reorganizing tabs.

Been there, done that. It’s less.

The difference may have to do with the level of experience of the user, Tognazzini’s Complaint’s notwithstanding. How many Mac users re-arrange tabs? I suspect that Apple knows more about that than most of us. I rearranged tabs plenty in Safari 3.x but find much less of a need in Safari 4.x, and when I do the steps are not more, but more precision is required.

Closing a tab is the same effort, either way—one click. Selecting a tab is the same, either way—one click. Re-arranging a tab is the same, either way—one click, hold, move. Viewing tabs is remarkably easier in Safari 4.x. Even creating a new tab is more intuitive for users not into tabs (the “+” sign), but the effort is the same. Safari 4 also saves screen real estate by placing the tabs and title on the same horizontal line.

Apple got it right. Again.

Got some examples? We have to mouse over or to everything. Take a Menu Bar menu, for example. Sometimes we click to select a menu, then select an item in the menu, but often do so even when we’re not exactly sure that what we want to do may be there—and when we are sure. Same effort, either way.

Apples and Oranges.  Menus are entirely different because they are a collection of actions.  We click menu items because we’re looking for something.  Closing a window/tab has been and should continue to be different.  Simply closing a tab shouldn’t require a hover, move, hover, click.

Instead of me coming up with examples, how bout naming another place in an apple product that we hover to find an actionable item?

Been there, done that. It’s less.

Closing tabs with mouse

Safari 3:

1.) move mouse and hover over the visible close icon on the tab you would like to close
2.) click close

Safari 4:

1.) move mouse and hover the tab you would like to close
2.) locate the newly visible close icon
3.) move mouse to the close icon
4.) click close

Reorganizing tabs

Safari 3:

1.) move mouse and hover the tab you would like to move
2.) click and hold anywhere on the tab
3.) slide to new location
4.) release

Safari 4:

1.) move mouse and hover the tab you would like to move
2.) locate the drag icon
3.) move mouse and hover drag icon
4.) click and hold the drag icon
5.) slide to new location
6.) release

Doesn’t appear less to me.  A logical conclusion would be that Apple is sacrificing less steps for these issues in favor of some of the other benefits we’ve discussed.  If that’s their logic, which I assume it is, I completely understand.

Stephen, you’re missing the point. The actions you listed are subjective in description, not in action. A click is a click. A motion is a motion. Whether there’s a thought attached to either is often dependent on experience, capability, disposition, etc. The number of motions, and clicks, are the same. Where the click is made may differ, but there’s no extra motion involved, no extra clicks involved.

How does a menu differ from a tab? Both are collections of actions which are performed with a motion and a click. Both are accessed the same way—movement, select, click.

Put another way:

Closing Tabs With Mouse:

Safari 3.x: Move pointer to tab, click close button (button is always in the same place).

Safari 4.x: Move pointer to tab, click close button (button is always in the same place).

Reorganizing Tabs With Mouse:

Safari 3.x: Move pointer to tab, click, hold, move left or right, release.

Safari 4.x: Move pointer to ‘grabber’ on tab, click, hold, move left or right release.

Note that there are NO extra motions or clicks. It could be said that Safari 4 is more intuitive because of the ‘grabber’ identifier which is not present in Safari 3 (very unintuitive as evidenced by the many Mac users who had no idea tabs existed, or that they could be moved).

Apple seems to have traded the same number of clicks for higher usability, greater visibility, higher productivity (can have more tabs and titles visible in Safari 4.x vs. 3.x).

By the way, hovering for actions is nothing new, though I find the usage in Safari intriguing and useful, and I suspect we’ll see more of it in the future (think of it as hidden tabs of actionable items). Whether it existed in a previous Apple product or not is not even a relevant issue. The mouse didn’t exist in a made-for-the-masses personal computer until Apple’s original Mac. Because it wasn’t there before doesn’t make its absence better. Usability makes it better.

Simply closing a tab shouldn’t require a hover, move, hover, click.

I’m game. How else do you close a tab? Mental telepathy? I just closed a Safari 4 tab. The processes: move mouse to close button, click. The tab disappeared. Same effort as in Safari 3.x. Same time. Same number of clicks. Hover has no bearing except as an intuitive visual cue for the inexperienced.

We can describe them differently all day long, then trivialize the procedures, but it comes down to the same effort.

Safari 4’s tabs, while seemingly different than the predecessor, hence most of the grumbling, work better. Same motions, same clicks, better visual cues (vs. none in Safari 3.x), better arrangement for viewing all tabs in all windows.

Note that there are NO extra motions or clicks.

This is the crux of our debate and inability to agree.  From the most capable mouse operator on the planet all the way to my grandma, I don’t see how anyone could argue that there is no extra motion.  ANYTIME something is hidden, the chances of missing it increase.  Period.  The count I supplied is accurate.  Your count is based on what you **think** is happening, but it’s not really happening that way most of the time.

How does a menu differ from a tab? Both are collections of actions which are performed with a motion and a click. Both are accessed the same way—movement, select, click.

I wasn’t drawing a difference between a menu and tab.  I was drawing a difference between a menu (collection of actions) and wanting to close a window or tab (one action).  These two have to be treated differently.  One reason is because we’ve been trained that way.  Another reason is because closing a window or tab shouldn’t take as much effort.  Why?  Because it doesn’t have to.

By the way, hovering for actions is nothing new, though I find the usage in Safari intriguing and useful, and I suspect we’ll see more of it in the future (think of it as hidden tabs of actionable items). Whether it existed in a previous Apple product or not is not even a relevant issue. The mouse didn’t exist in a made-for-the-masses personal computer until Apple’s original Mac. Because it wasn’t there before doesn’t make its absence better. Usability makes it better.

No, it’s not anything new and we’ll have to wait and see.  I don’t find it intriguing at all.  There are plenty of usability studies that suggest lower aptitude when hovering is required to find hidden actions.  If Apple can change the game on this, great!

How else do you close a tab? Mental telepathy?

Make them visible!  Don’t make me think!!

btw:  If this is the worst Apple does, I’ll be okay.  I’m currently reviewing a Kindle and it’s sad that Amazon hasn’t learned much from the road we’ve traveled with respect to usability.

Make them visible!  Don’t make me think!!

And once I found out where they are, what they did, and that I could do it all and more with the same motion and clicks, I learned. Now I don’t think about it.

If this is the worst Apple does, I’ll be okay.  I’m currently reviewing a Kindle and it’s sad that Amazon hasn’t learned much from the road we’ve traveled with respect to usability.

Here, here! We’re arguing over minute issues of almost imperceptible efforts relative to what those poor PC souls have to put up with every day.

The Kindle is considered something of a success, though many reports say Amazon has sold but half a million units, give or take. Similar reports say Apple has sold between one and two million AppleTVs, and it’s not considered a success, but a dismal hobby.

The problem I see with the Kindle falls into two areas: 1) it’s a one trick pony, 2) it appeals to technogadget readers, not the masses. Add the same capability to Apple’s upcoming and larger screen iPad** tablet combo MacBook and iPod touch, and Kindle becomes kindling.

**dreaming of a better tomorrow

The problem I see with the Kindle falls into two areas: 1) it’s a one trick pony, 2) it appeals to technogadget readers, not the masses.

I couldn’t agree more 😊

Add the same capability to Apple’s upcoming and larger screen iPad** tablet combo MacBook and iPod touch, and Kindle becomes kindling.

I sure hope this is the case.  Please tell when you learn that Apple is indeed making this.  I want one.  I need one.  And I’ll be at the front of the line.

I’m late to the Safari 4 beta show, but I installed it both at work and at home today. Very pleased so far.

I’ll let the new tabs and other changes grow on me a bit before deciding if I like them or not. But the single most important thing so far is the speed. If is faster! Not snappier — like we say when we think it might be a little quicker, but we’re not for sure — but actually, noticeably faster.

Now, I hope the memory leak is fixed.  😊

I’ll let the new tabs and other changes grow on me a bit before deciding if I like them or not.

I did the same and found that they’re an improvement over the old tab method. Me likes ‘em.

But the single most important thing so far is the speed. If is faster! Not snappier — like we say when we think it might be a little quicker, but we’re not for sure — but actually, noticeably faster.

That it is. Now, if only Safari on the iPhone can get to the same level of snappy.

Now, I hope the memory leak is fixed.

Uh oh. Haven’t seen the damage from that one yet.

That it is. Now, if only Safari on the iPhone can get to the same level of snappy.

I can’t recall anything specifically mentioned about Mobile Safari in the 3.0 stage show. Hope springs eternal, but I still can’t complain much. Safari on the iPhone is pretty darned nice. (Of course, that didn’t help it when a few thousand extra iPhones at SXSWi brought AT&T to its knees!)

Now, I hope the memory leak is fixed.

Uh oh. Haven’t seen the damage from that one yet.

It was a problem in 3.0, but it only bit me a few times. Safari just slowly gobbled up RAM over the course of a work day.