Thread

You can spot an EE forum a mile off because they’re never very well reskinned or integrated into the site’s design - apart from EE’s own site.

As is the case with vBulleting, phpBB, and other popular forums. It takes effort to create a ‘skin’ that goes beyond the standard look.

Yes agreed - but I would also ague that many of those other forums start from a superior starting point as far as the overall style is concerned.

That said, the latest 2.0 preview offers a glimmer of hope about this. Maybe I just need to bite the bullet - as 2.0 is still a long ways off.

It’s my understanding that EE 2.0 will come with a basic “site” installation that goes far beyond the current templates available. Perhaps that setup can be the basis for a “skin community” to create template themes.

Yes and the example screenshots clearly show a themed forum so there’s something there - although I don’t think we’ll be seeing a release for a good number of months yet.

Yes agreed - but I would also ague that many of those other forums start from a superior starting point as far as the overall style is concerned.

That’s a matter of opinion. Style is so subjective.

Yes agreed - but I would also ague that many of those other forums start from a superior starting point as far as the overall style is concerned.

That’s a matter of opinion. Style is so subjective.

Agreed - and I just about added a footnote to that effect.

I guess what I’m getting at is that the included forum themes feel a little dated somehow. This and the amount of work required to work up a forum theme is reflected in the number of people who have requested that this theme (EE) be released.

I know it’s subjective - I guess that given how good the rest of EE is, and for those of us who don’t have the time to build a new forum/wiki theme from scratch, it would be great to have something much more contemporary as a basis to build on. I have high hopes that 2.0 will bring us closer.

As I said earlier there’s a reason I keep not choosing something else and coming back to EE.

Finally, I want to thank the OP for posting up his experiences. It’s these first hand experiences of from folks having used these tools in anger that helps make for informed decisions. For example I’ve been looking closely at typolight which at first glance looks very good - but it’s very very hard to find firsthand feedback from people who are using it. Of course there’s never any shortage of such feedback here re EE.

I have been using WordPress and just got hacked.

Hacking comes in many flavors. Was WP hacked or was the host’s server that got hacked? Was it a WP vulnerability, PHP vulnerability, some other vulnerability?

Sometimes those things are hard to pin down.

Even tho I’m, kind of new to the EE community and the CMS itself, it doesn’t feel like it was originally designed to compete with the likes of wordpress or joomla. 

What attracted me to EE and what I think needs to but marketed over the others is the native custom fields, channels, etc… and how it all can be used for scalability. 

I’ve worked in vBulletin, Joomla, WP, IPB, and a few other template systems and EE is by far the easiest (for me) to understand.

Even tho I’m, kind of new to the EE community and the CMS itself, it doesn’t feel like it was originally designed to compete with the likes of wordpress or joomla.

You got the right impression then, Kevin.  When Rick originally wrote pMachine Pro, ExpressionEngine’s predecessor, these other products didn’t exist, and when he wrote ExpressionEngine 1.0, they weren’t on his mind.  ExpressionEngine is what it is because of self-born drive and not from any outside pressure, trends, or feature sets.  Internally we don’t even view other web publishing applications as “competition” so it would be unnatural for us to market our product in that way.  Though we do understand that there’s clearly a need to take people who are familiar with other publishing systems to the ExpressionEngine “lightbulb moment” more quickly, and feedback such as yours has been very helpful in determining how we can approach that in the future.  Thanks for the kind words!

I really like the way EE templates work.  Take any site design, whether custom, purchased, free, or whatever, and it’s childs play to use it with EE.  I always figured the lack of templates specifically for EE was more because it was unnecessary!  I never found that true for the other systems I used.  Forums and the Wiki are a bit different of course.  I’ve only toyed with the Wiki and have never had much need to do more than create my own header and color scheme for the forums for integration purposes so can’t say much about them.

I really like the way EE templates work.

Add EE’s templates to the EE tags and those are the crown jewels. Build what you want. Make it look the way you want. Create your own structure (or lack of). Expand the weblogs/channels and template groups and templates until it becomes so complex you have to hire someone to keep track of it all. Or, create a simple, elegant blog. You choose. In many ways EE’s basics are far cooler than all the bells and whistles available elsewhere.

Ok, I’m gonna throw my two cents in.  I am by no means any kind of designer or progammer.  In fact, I’m just a truck driver who happens to be fascinated with the web and play with sites.  I have gone ‘round and ‘round with different cms’s.  Back in 2002 I opted to buy pMachine Pro because it was simply system that scrubbed user input quite well and all you had to know was how to create a webpage and drop in some tags.  It never forced a pardigm of how your page should be constructed, or how you were going to use the program.

I was initially turned off by EE when it was first introduced because, well…. for personal use I thought the price was outrageous.  I have come to learn that no one builds a program that is exactly what I want or need; free or otherwise.  Now I’m back.  It is the fact that EE is a quite mature pMachine that brought me back. 

It is a blank sheet of paper which to many that are new to the web, or don’t want to invest much time in creating a website often find overwhelming and intimidating.  A lot of them have come form other systems (mentioned previously) and bring with them the paradigms and baggage of trying to make them do what they want.

On the issue of templates… Aren’t “it works right out of the box with this” templates for those that can’t construct a basic webpage? The problem I’ve had with the so called competition is that they are all slaves to the templates.  Do something wrong in their templates and you break the site.  Because ee is sooooo flexable you could not possibly know what a user wants in advance; therefore, your template will force them into your concept of what the site should be.  How many people use the “default site” template?  How many would if it were just a little bit fancier?

And the control panel…. it just seems harder because they use a different and I believe deliberately more complex templating system so we don’t break things as easily.  But that templating system is sooo streamlined and light weight.  You can, if your really dissatisfied with it, write your own cp and organize it any way you want. 😉

I can do everything any of the so called competition can do and sooo much more without twisting arms, hacking core code, or tricking the program; I just have to do it.  And this is just with v1.6x.  I can’t wait for v2.x.  It will be a whole new set of tools to figure out.

It never forced a pardigm of how your page should be constructed, or how you were going to use the program

That’s always been the key to me with both pmPro and EE. With the others, even the high-end (Vignet/Interwoven) I’ve always felt a slave to the system.

And the control panel…. it just seems harder because they use a different and I believe deliberately more complex templating system so we don’t break things as easily.  But that templating system is sooo streamlined and light weight.  You can, if your really dissatisfied with it, write your own cp and organize it any way you want. 😉

I can do everything any of the so called competition can do and sooo much more without twisting arms, hacking core code, or tricking the program; I just have to do it.  And this is just with v1.6x.  I can’t wait for v2.x.  It will be a whole new set of tools to figure out.

Very well said and fully understood and agreed to… EE does NOT have a standard or default structure ala WordPress or Joomla, and is far easier to configure than Drupal or others for those of us not versed in the intricacies of PHP.

I still want a default template/site structure because I am convinced that such will help to set a baseline for a cottage industry that will also help EE expand the customer base and remain viable.

Think of it. An EE default template/site structure that can be expanded, modified, tweaked as only EE can.

Sweet.

... EE does NOT have a standard or default structure ala WordPress or Joomla, and is far easier to configure than Drupal or others for those of us not versed in the intricacies of PHP.

Well yes EE does have a default structure to the extent that it ships with a default weblog with an example post, example categories, example field group, and example templates.  If you change the field group by adding or removing a custom field, what happens to the template?  What can you actually change in the “data structure” of WordPress or Joomla? Basically you can select what bells and whistles are turned on.  EE is not a blogging program, nor is it a content management system.  It is a blogging and content management tool box.

I still want a default template/site structure because I am convinced that such will help to set a baseline for a cottage industry that will also help EE expand the customer base and remain viable.

What is the target market of EE?  Those that want a system that is extremely flexible in its underlying data structure model, does not presuppose an intended use or layout of site, does all the heavy lifting of data input and retrieval, and most importantly will pay for the product.  Cottage industry or people who will give you something for nothing?  We have plenty of users that have developed a custom widget (plugin, extension, module) that they needed and then give it to the community for free.

Think of it. An EE default template/site structure that can be expanded, modified, tweaked as only EE can.

Which comes first, the template or the data structure?  With pre-built templates the site design flow would have to be: template -> data structure.  Then to change [customize] the template other than through just css adjustments, the user has to understand the what, why, and logic of the data structure.  So instead of focusing on what a wonderfully flexible and infinitely adaptable program EE is; this new user spends his time trying to understand the template.

Take a look at the forum for joomla, Wordpress, mambo, smf, phpBB or any other open source program out there and see how often their users with their “everything works right out of the box” come begging for help in understanding and customizing their templates.

EE simply and solely gets the development process right: data structure -> template.  This is probably why you haven’t seen anyone jump into the niche market of selling templates for EE like you have with the so called competition.  You have to build the house before you can paint it.

[edit]On second thought, there would be a market for a module to run a dynamically configurable theme.  Now all I have to do is figure out how to turn EE into Joomla, Drupal, or WordPress.

Well yes EE does have a default structure to the extent that it ships with a default weblog with an example post, example categories, example field group, and example templates.

And that’s not a default structure in the sense that developers can create site themes via templates. That’s the context under discussion.

If you change the field group by adding or removing a custom field, what happens to the template?  What can you actually change in the “data structure” of WordPress or Joomla? Basically you can select what bells and whistles are turned on.

As with any structure, adding or removing a custom data field (for entries) would break a template which utilizes a set of data fields. Frankly, it’s not much of a ‘break’ per se, requiring a few minor adjustments in the templates to account for the new or different fields.

Again, structure in WP or Joomla et al, can be changed, but it becomes a hack fraught with problems, wrecks pre-built themes/templates, etc.

EE is not a blogging program, nor is it a content management system.  It is a blogging and content management tool box.

EE defines itself as (home page): “ExpressionEngine is a flexible, feature-rich content management system…” That sums it up rather well.

I still want a default template/site structure because I am convinced that such will help to set a baseline for a cottage industry that will also help EE expand the customer base and remain viable.

What is the target market of EE?  Those that want a system that is extremely flexible in its underlying data structure model, does not presuppose an intended use or layout of site, does all the heavy lifting of data input and retrieval, and most importantly will pay for the product.  Cottage industry or people who will give you something for nothing?  We have plenty of users that have developed a custom widget (plugin, extension, module) that they needed and then give it to the community for free.

OK?

Think of it. An EE default template/site structure that can be expanded, modified, tweaked as only EE can.

Which comes first, the template or the data structure?  With pre-built templates the site design flow would have to be: template -> data structure.  Then to change [customize] the template other than through just css adjustments, the user has to understand the what, why, and logic of the data structure.  So instead of focusing on what a wonderfully flexible and infinitely adaptable program EE is; this new user spends his time trying to understand the template.

Why does template or data structure have to be “first?” Cannot both peacefully coexist? I think so. EE’s data structure is highly flexible; one of the strong points of using EE. That flexibility in creating template groups, templates, and weblogs also, to an extent, hinders a defacto default structure which would seemingly be required of a theme/templating system.

SImply creating a default weblog and a basic, default template group, with a number of appropriate templates with a simple data structure of Title, Summary, Body, Extended, would go a long way toward creating a defacto standard for an EE theme/template community.

Take a look at the forum for joomla, Wordpress, mambo, smf, phpBB or any other open source program out there and see how often their users with their “everything works right out of the box” come begging for help in understanding and customizing their templates.

That’s a fallacious argument. Everyone on every platform, including EE, comes begging for help to customize or better understand the tool. It’s the nature of people trying to learn.

EE simply and solely gets the development process right: data structure -> template.  This is probably why you haven’t seen anyone jump into the niche market of selling templates for EE like you have with the so called competition.  You have to build the house before you can paint it.

I don’t disagree with the point that EE data structure arrives first, then templates are painted on. But that’s not the point. All that’s required to build a thriving theme/template community is an EE sanctioned, default “weblog/template_group/template set” that allows for easy “one click (or, two or three; I’m not picky)” installation of templates. I think EE is nearly half way there already. The default data structure of Title, Summary, Body, Extended exists. A default Weblog (channel) already exists. Add to that the basic template pages of index, articles, archives, comments, preview, categories, or whatever is deemed appropriate, and developers have something to hang their site styles upon. None of that changes EE’s famed flexibility. In fact, developers could gain additional projects by customizing pre-built themes.

On second thought, there would be a market for a module to run a dynamically configurable theme.  Now all I have to do is figure out how to turn EE into Joomla, Drupal, or WordPress.

No one is asking that to occur in the way you’re describing. However, there are plenty of users asking for an improved EE admin control panel (ala WP), and some kind of defacto theme/template system (ala WP, Joomla, et al), not to mention other bells and whistles, none of which is requested to make EE become like those apps, but to improve the experience for current and future EE customers.

The default data structure of Title, Summary, Body, Extended exists. A default Weblog (channel) already exists. Add to that the basic template pages of index, articles, archives, comments, preview, categories, or whatever is deemed appropriate, and developers have something to hang their site styles upon.

So all that needs to be done is to build some really cool templates, write an sql file that will append the necessary exp_ tables and write a read.me:
1. unzip - which you did to reading this
2. place the install_template_group.php in your root directory
3. run http://www.yoursitename.com/install_template_group.php
4. delete install_template_group.php
5. go to cp -> templates
6. select this template group in right column
7. select edit group in second to right column
8. select check box “Make the index template in this group your site’s home page?”
9. you’re done.

Can it get any simpler? Or do you want a control panel [extension] widget that will upload the file, unzip the file, and run the query to update the appropriate tables?  I’m not trying to be sarcastic here.  This will only work IF this is done on a site that has not hand any data structure changes.  Surely someone in the time EE has existed should have thought of this.  Is it that no one can see the value?

So all that needs to be done is to build some really cool templates, write an sql file that will append the necessary exp_ tables and write a read.me:

1. unzip - which you did to reading this
2. place the install_template_group.php in your root directory
3. run http://www.yoursitename.com/install_template_group.php
4. delete install_template_group.php
5. go to cp -> templates
6. select this template group in right column
7. select edit group in second to right column
8. select check box “Make the index template in this group your site’s home page?”
9. you’re done.

Can it get any simpler? Or do you want a control panel [extension] widget that will upload the file, unzip the file, and run the query to update the appropriate tables?  I’m not trying to be sarcastic here.  This will only work IF this is done on a site that has not hand any data structure changes.  Surely someone in the time EE has existed should have thought of this.  Is it that no one can see the value?

You’ve just about nailed it, especially the need for an EE control panel setting which, when clicked, uploads the standardized “site” files—which would include weblog/channel name, data field structure (to match the weblog), template group, and appropriate templates—which would then get created by EE (much as we do now by hand).

EE would require some kind of default “standard” list of settings to upload file, unzip file, create web log, create data structure to match (weblog, categories, custom fields, etc.), create template group(s), create templates, upload templates, perhaps even assign certain specific global preferences. These are all steps that most of us do already during an initial install of EE (besides deleting EE’s standard ‘site’). It’s simply automating the process and doing so according to an EE sanctioned ‘structure.’

It’s important to note that NONE of the above should interfere with EE’s famed flexibility, bells and whistles, etc. It’s simply a pre-defined “site” which consists of a basic set of site requirements—weblog, categories, custom fields, template group, templates, etc.—which are automatically uploaded and installed.

EE would have to establish and sanction the procedure, of course, even to the point of perhaps creating/providing an XML file format which would contain the details for each site. Another important ‘key’ to such an install would be the naming of the weblog/channel, category group, custom field group, template group, templates, so they don’t clash with something already on an EE install.

I’m not saying this whole thing would be easy. It’s PHP, MySQL, EE, and an agreed-to set of steps to do the processing. But I know enough about what goes on under the hood to know that it could be done without much, if any, structural change to EE—possibly even as a Module or Extension, perhaps with a list of default settings which could be changed prior to the install. In other words, automating the step-by-step that many of us do manually now to set up a pre-designed site.

Doable? Yes.