Thread

Hopefully this isn’t too redundant, but there are some points that confuse me about EE as someone who has a solid understanding of Joomla it’s templating and content management. I have the paid demo and have been going through it but feel lost. Please give me kick in the right direction:

Am i wrong in feeling that EE is a means of linking multiple individual pages as opposed to how Joomla approaches keeps the content and the layout very separate? My design process in joomla is:

1) Create layout in photoshop
2) Hand code the index.php page (divs and tags) and CSS
3) Add the “joomla code” to call the module positions, main content…etc
4) Toss the new template files into Joomla’s template folder
5) Install the plug ins i need: galleries, rotators, WYSIWYG editors, other eye candy
6) Set up Sections (Parent) / Categories (Child)
7) Add content
8) Enjoy a cold beverage.

I like that it is very quick to install the modules i need and that there is a set hierarchy for the content. Makes it MUCH easier to explain to clients who are maintaining their own sites. The fact that the template of the site is essentially in one index.php and one template.css file. With a little forethought, it isn’t hard to get very customized front pages. However, I have noticed that many non-joomla developers do not like working with Joomla and that joomla can still be too static for child pages that need to look as customized as the front page.

Does joomla handhold so much that I am an idiot for it? or is developing layouts for EE just as simple. Am I missing something really basic? What about content management? People easily understand the Section/Category layout of Joomla, is there a way to do the same in EE that a non-dev/designer could easily log in and manage content?

I did watch the tutorials but still feel a bit confused. I apologize for the noob-ness of this post.

Hi 2go media,

Am i wrong in feeling that EE is a means of linking multiple individual pages as opposed to how Joomla approaches keeps the content and the layout very separate?

EE keeps content and layout separated as well. Content is stored in the database, typically as blog entries. Layout is produced in the templates. What is different is that EE makes no assumptions about how those are related. There is no assumed structure, there is no assumed association between blogs and templates, etc… This is what gives EE its flexibility but also makes it tricky if you’re coming from a solution where a lot is assumed. A template can have zero blogs, 3 blogs, 100 blogs, the same blog 5 times, displayed 5 different ways, etc… Its up to you.

You can make a master template to work from, but there is no master index.php file in the sense that I think you’re saying Joomla has. Which brings up a good point.

We’re not Joomla experts (never even installed it) so I don’t know how to make an analogy between the two approaches. Let’s try this instead. What are you trying to accomplish? I find its easier to explain how EE works when we can talk about the specifics of what needs to be built.

That being said, EE people tend to have different work flows. Here’s mine.

1. Enjoy a cold beverage (or coffee, depending on time of day)
2. Handcode a static HTML/CSS page as a reference point.
3. Determine the content structure of the site (what is static content, what is dynamic content)
4. Create blogs/templates as necessary
5. Implement HTML/CSS into templates
6. Tweak as necessary

Somewhere along the way I’ve cursed IE…. repeatedly.

I’d recommend heading over to Train-ee, which has free and paid EE learning resources. Also, EE Screencasts has some great material that is low cost (but not free).

I think you are a little lost like I am when I first started playing with EE, but trust me, it’s a GODSEND after you’ve done a site or two.
Also, put your worries to rest and just take a deep breath, you CAN, and SHOULD do some more training courses, as said above, to fully grasp the EE concepts. I personally try to manage as little files as possible in EE, just as you would in Joomla.

Basically, with EE, you are essentially working with two areas.
Templates: Hands OFF to clients, this is for the developer only
Content (Weblogs): Hands on for clients, they can mess with whatever they want

Now, within each one of those, there are many options, plug-ins, modules, extensions, etc. that you can work with.

Here is the process I go through with EE:
1.) Create layout in photoshop
2.) Code index.php and subpage.php
3.) Paste index.php into template group “root” (this can be whatever name you want)
4.) Paste subpage.php into template group “page”
5.) Edit root and page group pages so they take advantage of EE code (like {embed} and things like that)
6.) Set up the Weblogs and Weblog Fields I need
7.) Place the proper code on index and page templates to call the correct Weblog content
8.) Add modules and other add-ons if necessary
9.) Add content to all weblogs
10.) Enjoy a cold beverage

NOW—if you want to dive into how to make your EE site easy to manage, you can read more about how I set up my sites in general:

The glory of expression engine is, you can make whatever template groups you want. Here are some template groups I have for our company website:

root
page
blog
news
form

And here is how I set up my templates within the page group to allow myself to “streamline” my template so if I want to change the look of the site, I alter only two files, top and bottom.

page > top
page > bottom
page > index

On page top and bottom, I split my code, for instance, in page > top, I would have any code from <DOCTYPE> to the end of my body content.

Now… on page > index, I do this:

{embed="page/top"}
{embed="page/bottom"}

This allows me to carry page/top and page/bottom to any other groups I need like, blog, news, and form, without having to re-invent the wheel. Basically, for a custom page like a form, I would do this.

{embed="page/top"}
<!--Begin custom code--><?php include('customformcode.php'); ?><!---->
{embed="page/bottom"}

I know. It’s a little nutty to catch on to right away, but thats how I set up my site so that I can change the WHOLE look of my site in a very painless way. I think that answers the “Joomla can do things in only a couple files” comment.

In terms of creating very customized pages, EE is perfect. EE can do ANYTHING you’de like, because YOU define what templates you want. So basically, you just create a new template group if you need a special page.

Thank you both for your replies. They both have much to mull over and the links to add’l training will be essential.

Let me know if I understand the following:

1) What you are calling “blogs” are content areas of dynamic content. So if I had a blog section for content category “latest news” then that is where all the new content for that category would appear. however, unlike Joomla there is not a single “content” component that is the only place I can publish to. I can have my blog section go in the side bar, in the footer or in a z-index’d div if I really want?

2) How about the layout for content. Are there ways to give clients access to just the content section without all the development stuff? I don’t’ have a way to do this in joomla but would LOVE this feature. Also are there only categories? as in there are no parent and sub categories for content?

3) Are there Wysiwyg editors for EE

4) Attached is a final draft for a client. (with identifying info removed of course) with module positions numbered. With some planning ahead, all those modules can be collapsed on the fly to the point where I could have the white content area be full width and right below the menu bar. all this is done with one index.php page and one template.css page though it is a very global CSS file.

If am understanding EE: It would be more broken up and each section could be called in as needed:

Top
- Top Menu, Quick Links, RSS, Text Size, Search
Menu Bar
- Main Menu
Header Modules
- Rotator, Video Selector, Top Stories
Main Content
- Left Sidebar
- - - Categories, Featured Product, Advertising
- Content Blog
- Featured Rotator
- Right Sidebar
- - - Newsletter, Club Updates
Bottom Modules
Footer

Obviously, it is a very content driven site with a lot going on. Subpages (i.e. features, programs..etc)will have as much content as the front page. How do you approach this in EE?  Building more detailed versions of each section and call them individually on a per page bases? Or can I build a section with generic slots (position1, position2..etc) and assign my modules to appear on page Features in Position1?

Hopefully this makes sense.  :lol:

1) What you are calling “blogs” are content areas of dynamic content.

Yes, data containers if you will. “Weblog” is a historic term that will be changed with EE 2.0.

So if I had a blog section for content category “latest news” then that is where all the new content for that category would appear.

Yes, although you can have categories on top of that, too.

however, unlike Joomla there is not a single “content” component that is the only place I can publish to. I can have my blog section go in the side bar, in the footer or in a z-index’d div if I really want?

Totally up to you. Build an XHTML page, insert [exp:weblog:entries} anywhere you want, done.

2) How about the layout for content. Are there ways to give clients access to just the content section without all the development stuff?

Yes. They can edit the weblog entries, without needing access to the templates.

Also are there only categories? as in there are no parent and sub categories for content?

You can nest categories, too. But, again, EE makes no assumptions what you want to do with these categories, or where you want them displayed—if at all.

3) Are there Wysiwyg editors for EE

Not officially supported, but yes, people are using TinyMCE and FCKEditor with sucess.

1) What you are calling “blogs” are content areas of dynamic content. So if I had a blog section for content category “latest news” then that is where all the new content for that category would appear. however, unlike Joomla there is not a single “content” component that is the only place I can publish to. I can have my blog section go in the side bar, in the footer or in a z-index’d div if I really want?

In EE’s CP there is a Publish Tab. That’s the “single” place you’ll publish to. As you create blogs to hold your content the Publish Tab will become a drop down (or click thru) and you can choose which blog to publish to.

Where the content appears is completely up to you. Publish once, display anywhere.

2) How about the layout for content. Are there ways to give clients access to just the content section without all the development stuff? I don’t’ have a way to do this in joomla but would LOVE this feature. Also are there only categories? as in there are no parent and sub categories for content?

Clients can edit content, but typically a developer doesn’t give content editors access to templates. There are tricky ways to control layout through Custom Fields, but under typical conditions you decide what the user has access to in terms of publishing/editing content. This can be done through access to the Control Panel (which you can limit so the user only sees the options they have permissions to see) or via a Stand Alone Entry Form (SAEF), which is a template outside the Control Panel you can setup.

3) Are there Wysiwyg editors for EE

EE doesn’t ship with a WYSIWYG but the EE wiki has a list of which ones integrate with EE.

4) Attached is a final draft for a client. (with identifying info removed of course) with module positions numbered. With some planning ahead, all those modules can be collapsed on the fly to the point where I could have the white content area be full width and right below the menu bar. all this is done with one index.php page and one template.css page though it is a very global CSS file.

If am understanding EE: It would be more broken up and each section could be called in as needed:

Top
- Top Menu, Quick Links, RSS, Text Size, Search
Menu Bar
- Main Menu
Header Modules
- Rotator, Video Selector, Top Stories
Main Content
- Left Sidebar
- - - Categories, Featured Product, Advertising
- Content Blog
- Featured Rotator
- Right Sidebar
- - - Newsletter, Club Updates
Bottom Modules
Footer

Start with the content and plan from there. So, for example, you might have these weblogs:

Features
Programs
Media & Press
Testimonials

Now, plan the Custom Fields and Categories for each weblog. You can have unique Custom Fields for each weblog, unique categories for each weblog, and you can share categories across weblogs as well. For example, for Features I might have Custom Fields for summary and body. For Media Press I might have something different (a field to hold PDF versions of press releases for example). I might make Testimonials a community style blog with a SAEF where registered members can access a template, publish a testimonial, that you then approve or deny. When its approved, it gets published appropriately.

At the template level, you decide how all this is handled. I might have a templates called Top, footer, sidebar, and then create main templates as I go.

To get your content on the page, its just a matter of putting the weblog tag where you need it. For example, to call the two most recent stories for your section labeled MAIN, you might have:

{exp:weblog:entries weblog="features" limit="2" orderby="date" sort="desc"}
<h2>{title}</h2>
<p><div class="content">{summary} <a href="http://{title_permalink=">READ MORE</a></div><br />
{/exp:weblog:entries}

For the Most Popular articles, is the same thing, just with different parameters and values:

<ul class="popular">
{exp:weblog:entries weblog="features" limit="8" orderby="view_count_one" sort="desc"}
<li><a href="http://{title_permalink=site/articles}">{title}</a></li>
{/exp:weblog:entries}
</ul>

And that is more or less how you’ll determine display of content. Stick the weblog tag where you need it, find the parameters you want, and then style your content.

It can get a lot more advanced then that, especially when you throw conditionals into the mix, but as a basic starting point that’s it. Different developers would approach it in different ways and please keep in mind I don’t really understand the site, I’m just doing a first pass based on a single image. 😊

Obviously, it is a very content driven site with a lot going on. Subpages (i.e. features, programs..etc)will have as much content as the front page. How do you approach this in EE?  Building more detailed versions of each section and call them individually on a per page bases? Or can I build a section with generic slots (position1, position2..etc) and assign my modules to appear on page Features in Position1?

Again, its really up to you. Here is where Conditionals might come in handy. For example, you can have a few templates and display content based on the URL (a favorite trick).

{if segment_3 == "articles"}
My articles stuff
{if:elseif segment_3 == "special"}
display special stuff
{/if}

The rabbit hole is pretty deep. Hopefully this helps.

Thank you again for the replies. If anything, I think I am even more terrified than I was before.  🐛

The concept that the system assumes nothing means I can define everything at first seems like more work but would evolve into something a lot more free-form and fluid. At the same time it’s like losing my safety wheels… on a steep slope… that ends in a busy intersection. lol.

I guess the only thing I can do now is start hammering away. You all have given me a great starting point and I definitely see the massive potential even if I am not sure how to go about it completely.

A most pre-sales type of question - I do have the hosted trial which gives me a good look at things, but I find it easier to develop locally on wamp so I preview changes immediately instead of being stuck uploading and whatnot.

Should the free core version be enough to develop on locally? i would prefer to bang on that for a bit before having to commit financially.

Hi Nick,

Please check the email associated with your ExpressionEngine.com account. Thanks!

I guess the only thing I can do now is start hammering away. You all have given me a great starting point and I definitely see the massive potential even if I am not sure how to go about it completely.

I’ve done both Joomla and EE for a number of years. Joomla is very good but highly structured, with a demanding requirement to balance design with XHTML with CSS with PHP and all within Joomla’s somewhat restrictive parameters.

EE is much different. Many complex, well-designed sites can be constructed without any pre-determined structural requirements or knowledge of PHP.

So, go build something to start. Even EE Core is good for that.

Often with EE, that’s exactly what it takes. Build something. Start with an index page, build it out using basic XHTML and CSS, then add a few EE tags and some dummy content.

Somewhere about that point, when you’ve created a few web pages with content, all stored in EE’s templates, and a sprinkling of appropriate EE tags, a little light goes on in the head. Sometimes there’s a “plinking” sound. Sometimes a knowing smile.

Regardless, you’ll “get it” and see what we mean.

Thank you again for the replies. If anything, I think I am even more terrified than I was before.  🐛

How about Relationships, Status Groups, Template PHP, SQL Queries, Multi Site Manager and Derek’s loud shirts?

That lot should make you break down somewhat more 😊

Please note that—with the possible exception of Derek’s shirts—these are all optional 😊

Yup. More terrified. 😊

I have started messing with EE on my wamp server. It amazes me how much easier my more structured and rigid joomla process is to me right now but I think will eat those words in the near future.I am beginning to see the real flexibility of EE. I keep typing questions to ask but after doing a double take and thinking, I keep answering myself. This may not be impossible.

A funny bit of information I sent to partner for a future project:

Joomla Base Install
Size: 23.8MB
Folders: 791
Files: 4794

ExpressionEngine Base Install
Size: 7.61MB
Folders: 68
Files: 439

Slight difference.

Quick Question: In the demo template, the post layout is specified in the index template. Is it possible to create a post template with everything formatted how I want. and simply embed that while dynamically pulling the content I want to be posted, or am i making this harder than it needs to be?

Quick Question: In the demo template, the post layout is specified in the index template. Is it possible to create a post template with everything formatted how I want. and simply embed that while dynamically pulling the content I want to be posted, or am i making this harder than it needs to be?

As you start building in the templates remember that {embed} is your friend. I work on a few complicated sites but seldom create more than half a dozen (dozen max) actual pages. Each page contains very little code, usually {embeds}, which simply insert other pieces of the page, all from templates; navmenu, main content, banner/logo, columns, footer, etc. By using Conditionals, even that small number of pages can be reduced.

For folks new to EE I always recommend that they start with an index page and a few basic templates as {embeds}. Then add a page or two; quite easy since most page elements are already done. Somewhere around the second or third page is when the Big Light™ goes on in the head. The rest is fun, sprinkled with lots of questions, and a gnawing concern that something isn’t quite right because you’re not mucking around in PHP, yet it all still works.

😊

Hi Nick,

Check out the free (and paid) tutorials over at Train-ee.com, they’ll help alot. Also, Lisa Wess (Director of Community Services) wrote a detailed study of our default templates for the EE Blog that you’ll likely find helpful: Dissecting the Default Templates

Nick,

Not wanting to knock what anyone has said here as the answers are all fantastic and have very very valid information in them but perhaps it was just too much information for one go?

What you asked for in your first post is all very very do-able out of the box with ExpressionEngine. Whilst I don’t have first-hand knowledge of Joomla I can safely say from what you have asked that ExpressionEngine definitely allows you to keep your content and layout separate.

To get a simple blog site up and running (if you already have all your templates ready as XHTML / CSS files) really shouldn’t take any longer than for any other CMS. In fact I myself find ExpressionEngine much much faster in that respect and can get a site up and running in literally anything from an hour to a few hours if the templates are all ready.

Yes there are a multitude of different ways of working with the data and that is where all the other tags come in to play such as relationships, categories and the like but for a simple site you may probably only need to use the one tag - the fantastic weblog tag.

As you go on and build your site then you will start to see what you can do or perhaps what you are missing in the site and that is when you will look through the documentation or hop on the forums to find out more of the tags.

Don’t let all the code terms get in the way as ExpressionEngine straight out of the box just using the weblog tag can do some pretty impressive things 😉

Hope you do decide to use ExpressionEngine as I can honestly say that I have never come across an easier or more powerful system in my whole life and I have used a lot of them in the past! 😊

Best wishes,

Mark