Thread

We’ve built EE together, dare I say 😊

Completely agree with this. Its one of the reasons 2.0 will be on CI.

We’ll consider a feature list after the Developer Preview is available. I’m not promising anything but we’ll be in a much better position to share a lot more things after the Developer Preview and initial betas are available. Until then, we’re all going to have to be patient.

Some wicked preview of a new test site design or something would go a long way.
I believe LC mentioned something like this being in the works, a while ago already, unless I read this wrong. IT sounded to me like Leslie was talking about a new demo site, or the site that installs by default with a new version, I wasn’t sure, but thought it sounded way cool, and included some of the new functionalities being developed.

I, for one, look forward to it. Just to be clear, I meant a few hours to create the feature list and some screenshots 😉

I know what you were referring to, heh.

I don’t think you guys are making a mistake to give us news in advance FWIW, again pointing to things like Leopard being shown off, iPhone being shown off 6 months in advance, the New Xbox Experience being shown off about 6 months early, Wordpress providing sandboxes to allow people to play with new features before they are officially released, etc. etc. These companies did it because, yes, they knew it would create hype - but it also sets expectations. Even in the case of a delay in whole, or a delay in some of the features so those can be more polished. People like being told what to expect, and it makes them feel included, respected, etc.

And we’ll have a Developer Preview, more showcasing, a semi-public beta, just like the products you mentioned.  When it’s ready.

Ronnie, the toothpaste analogy is an interesting one, but it doesn’t
really apply here.

The analogy, which became a mixed metaphor, certainly applies, as evidenced
by…

Of course you cannot make people forget the cat that is already
out of the tube.

Exactly. Which also means, that going forward, an adjustment could be made
which takes into account the cat and toothpaste being out of their
respective bags and tubes.

In other words, now that everyone knows EE 2.0 is coming, now that everyone
knows EE 2.0 is later than planned, how about instituting a straightforward,
reasonable, substantive, and regular update on EE’s status; perhaps a
combination of items; difficulty in moving everything to CI, baked in
feature sets (one at a time, of course), and so on.

What EE users have received to date has been more sporadic than regular;
sometimes wonderful videos, other times a mere snippet of information,
mixed in with a sometimes defensive posturing. Look, most of us who’ve
hung around EE for many years have great respect for Rick and his team. We
love EE. We love the support. We love the capabilities, flexibility,
capacity, security, dependability of what you folks have created. User
feedback has helped to shape EE because you folks listened, and acted
accordingly. The feedback now requires a similar posture.

OK, releasing information about EE 2.0 so far in advance of actual delivery
may not have been the best thing to do. Things happen. How does the EE team
make the best of that situation going forward? My recommendation for going
forward—to avoid the sighing and groaning of recent months—would be to
formalize the process of divulging information about EE, up to and
including the preview release, beta, testing, and final release date.

But what about the rest of the cats? Hypothetically speaking,
if you do something with your own business that you later find out to be a
mistake, the fact that you made the initial mistake does not mean that you
must surrender to continuing to make that mistake in perpetuity. I’m not
saying that our previews, attempt at publishing a release date, and blog
posts about what’s coming was a mistake, but it certainly has made us
pause and remember the many benefits we had of previous policy of not
releasing anything at all in advance. For example, I just posted something
rather detailed Friday, which I’ve done regularly since SXSW. And yet
you’re still criticizing that I’m not sharing enough. I can’t win, and
that’s incredibly frustrating.

No one is asking the folks at EE to perpetuate a mistake. Some could argue
that keeping the previous policy of not releasing anything in advance is
good policy. Just look at all the forum posts that would have been
eliminated.

http://ellislab.com/images/smileys/wink.gifpDfvlo1lfeJRWBdBGBIm98aWjJEaXnDrtypography_img_src_end width=19height=19 alt=wink removed]

What’s done is done, but, arguably, the end result so far has been riddled
with discomfort, dissatisfaction, disappointment—much of which may be
reduced by a straightforward formalization of the release of information
about EE 2.0 going forward. That could range from complete silence until
the release (not recommended), to a formal, once every Friday or every
other Friday blog post with updates, screen shots, video snippet, whatever.
That would tend to reduce the EE user apprehension yet keep users in the
loop as to progress.

So, what we’re really
talking about is timeliness; a more regulated or disciplined approach to
releasing tidbits (via video, or screenshots, or whatever) about a few of
the “fer sure” features in EE 2.0.s

Alas, if only programming behaved and things fell into place at
timed marketing intervals.

Everyone knows that it doesn’t, which is why it’s all the more important
to exercise caution when pre-announcing new products, features, etc.

I think my blog post I have planned for this week will perhaps
clear up some of the mystery, and alleviate some of your frustration, or at
least shed some light on why we’ve chosen to speak about some things and
not others. Andru, that includes your list that would only take a “few
hours” to create.

A healthy blog post every Friday would go a long way toward quieting us
barbarians at the gate.

http://ellislab.com/images/smileys/grin.gifpDfvlo1lfeJRWBdBGBIm98aWjJEaXnDrtypography_img_src_end width=19height=19 alt=grin removed]

Erdal, Andru: Okay, so we publish a feature list that includes something that you’d have to hire a third party developer for to have now.  When we release 2.0, the feature doesn’t do what you thought it would, or had to be dropped altogether.  What now?  And if your answer is “I’d be okay with it, and then hire a developer to build the feature,” that’s great, and we’d appreciate your understanding.  Others won’t see it so benevolently, but as us letting them down at best, and as being liars at worst.

Of course, I would be okay with it.

I am talking about a “planned” feature list, not some “official” promises, or marketing traps.
Personally I just want to see the EL’s vision for the next years and a little bit help for planning(dreaming).

Because I trust EL, I will not be frustrated or disappointed, if some features will be delayed or canceled on the way to a release. I think such things have some understandable reasons.

I hope all this helps you to understand how some of your customers are thinking about trusting each other.
I would never call somebody or a company I work with a “liar”. This would be the end.

Things happen. How does the EE team make the best of that situation going forward? My recommendation for going forward—to avoid the sighing and groaning of recent months—would be to formalize the process of divulging information about EE, up to and including the preview release, beta, testing, and final release date.

Ronnie, we’ve done exactly the above. What the “groaners” don’t like is the speed at which we’re doing it, which is roughly every two to three weeks.

Nov 7 - Accessories, a Quick Primer
Oct 24 - EE 1.6.5
Oct 9 - Better 404s
Sept 26 - Brief Progress update

If it helps any, we already have the next two updates planned. This isn’t going to be done weekly, no matter how much complaining there is. Why not? Let’s see, we’ve sponsored two scholarships, promoted people in the community, gave away an EE book, we have more stuff with Train-ee in the works, there are more interviews, etc…. We communicate a lot.

As Derek and I have both already said, there is no way to formalize, produce, divulge, etc… that will make everybody happy. Its been that way since Rick launched pM Pro. *shrug*

Ronnie, we’ve done exactly the above. What the “groaners” don’t like is the speed at which we’re doing it, which is roughly every two to three weeks.

With all due respect, (I respect you folks plenty, even though Rick and I have disagreed on various issues in the past, EE is top notch organization) that may not quite the case.

The whole EE 2.0 issue appears to be somewhat, well, haphazard.

Nov 7 - Accessories, a Quick Primer
Oct 24 - EE 1.6.5
Oct 9 - Better 404s
Sept 26 - Brief Progress update

See? The ‘delay’ announcement, the ‘brief progress update’ are fine and all, but I had no idea that ‘better 404s’ and EE 1.6.5 and ‘Primer’ were related to regular progress about EE 2.0.

If it helps any, we already have the next two updates planned. This isn’t going to be done weekly, no matter how much complaining there is. Why not? Let’s see, we’ve sponsored two scholarships, promoted people in the community, gave away an EE book, we have more stuff with Train-ee in the works, there are more interviews, etc….

Yeah, you’re busy and it’s appreciated. Running a company as good as EE can be challenging for everyone. Customers and developers included.

We communicate a lot.

Is that communication always understood?  Remember that ‘communication’ has other implications other than ‘here’s our list of what we’re doing.’

As Derek and I have both already said, there is no way to formalize, produce, divulge, etc… that will make everybody happy. Its been that way since Rick launched pM Pro. *shrug*

True, but recognizing that plenty of EE folks are disappointed in the current communication process is important. The mix of implied promises, inherent disappointments with delays, and seemingly inconsistent communication about EE 2.0 is a breeding ground of discontent.

Defusing it as an issue isn’t painful or difficult and can eliminate a lot of frustration on both sides. All that’s needed is a consistent communication method. For example, most of those EE posters expressing themselves in a frank, transparent method, myself included, would probably be satisfied with something like this from EE:

“Until the formal announcement that EE 2.0 is ready for public preview (developers only or whatever), the EE staff will publish a weekly one page blog entry on EE 2.0’s progress. The entry may include video snippets, coding efforts, problem areas, some features that are baked in, a list of things not to worry about when upgrading from 1.6.x to 2.0, a list of things we’re working on for the future future, nomenclature changes, a few screenshots, etc. Come to this URL every Friday for the latest.”

That’s it. Nothing else. Officially, it’s one location, one voice, one list of progress items. Any time the 2.0 issue rears an ugly head elsewhere in the forums, simply point readers back to the same location.

My two cents…

Hi Ronnie,

I’m out of time to go tit-for-tat on every point so I’ll sum up simply as what you want isn’t possible. Sorry.

I think we can safely chart the evolution of a forum question these days:

1. Question
2. Immediate Partial Answer
3. Really good answer that takes longer to type
4. Lisa Wess, if she wasn’t #2 or #3.
5. Reference to how this relates to EE 2.0
6. Several funny pointless asides
7. Overreaction to “late” delivery of EE 2.0
8. Someone looking for #3 who didn’t bother reading even two responses in the thread.
9. Someone defending EE 2.0 because they’re really in LUUUV with EE 2.0 and want to MARRY EE 2.0
10. Reference to alcohol.
11.-22. (kind of blurry)
23. Everyone makes up and is best friends again.
24. Next day: Reference to hangover.

😊 that…is…very…clever…is worth a case a beer on its own…

Good grief! I’m a dabbler in EE at the moment but have been hearing good things about 2.0 so much so that I’m going to wait before I use it for a client’s site. However, as good a product as it is/might be, the developers/owners/whatevers of EllisLab really need to be a bit more receptive to the issue of communication, instead of criticising the criticism out of hand.

I think we all want 2.0 to work and be great, but right now it seems to be essentially vaporware. That’s the perception I have anyway, true or not, and it’s a real shame.

  9. Someone defending EE 2.0 because they’re really in LUUUV with EE 2.0 and want to MARRY EE 2.0
  10. Reference to alcohol.
  11.-22. (kind of blurry)
  23. Everyone makes up and is best friends again.
  24. Next day: Reference to hangover.

grin that…is…very…clever…is worth a case a beer on its own…

Think 9 and 10 should be reversed no?
Usually being drunk enough to propose marriage makes it not so trick-ee.

The vaporware label is exceptionally harsh wozza. If you’ve got a client at hand, your best bet is to go with what is available now, unless you’ve got other projects to work on.

If you’re really holding out for EE 2 and just a dabbler, like myself, your best bet is to dive in head first now to learn what you can.

I think we need a new label called :

Wait for it patiently and you will get to see an absolutely amazing update to an already fantastic product ware 😊

It’s definitely not vaporware. We all know that the team are hard at work on the code and we all can’t wait to see it but sometimes things can take longer than people originally expected them to. There are just too many variables (I believe) to be able to give a fixed date. I personally commend the developers for even telling people about this in the first place.

Best wishes,

Mark

Guys, I was talking about my perception - harsh or not, it is what it is. I’m a supporter (and evangeliser) of EE, even with my limited experience of it - I know at least one large London agency that have switched to EE from their in-house CMS after my recommendation.

I just think they could massively improve the communication and reduce the frustration of those of us who want to see the fabled two point oh succeed!

Good luck to EL - great technical job so far and I’m just hoping they stop with the point releases and concentrate on the real future of EE!

Point being made, I’ll not spam the thread further with the more than 540 additional items not listed above from the Change Log since the date of the referenced post.

Derek, I can see both sides of this fight.  First off, I do agree that significant changes are being made to EE 2.0.  Yes, just by looking over a brief snippet of the changes, I can see that EE 2.0 has well over 500+ changes.

Now from a developer’s standpoint, that’s great.  But from a customer’s standpoint, we want something now.

I’m just being honest, I agree with many of these other posts.  We understand that you feel the product “isn’t ready yet”.  But at least release what you have as a BETA or even an ALPHA, just so we can get started on using it.

Then just continue to release updates (so we can update it as changes are made).

So please just release a 2.0 Alpha, then release a 2.0.0.1 - 2.0.0.x as Alpha’s
Then release a 2.0.1.x as Beta’s
Then create a FINAL RELEASE (Stable) as EE 2.1

That way people that want to wait for a STABLE release can wait till the EE 2.1 is released (stable release for a production environment).

But those of us that are squirming in our seats, and need something RIGHT NOW, and are willing to deal with (and tolerate) the bugs/missing features, etc.  At least just give us an Alpha Release, and an eventual Beta Release.

If you don’t want to release the Alpha’s or Beta’s publicly, then at least just make it a private “Invitation Only” for developers (so at least we can begin working on modules and plugins for EE 2.0).

I want to work on an e-Commerce module for EE 2.0 (regardless of whether EllisLabs comes out with their own module).  I would love to get started on this (just so all these EE users will stop complaining about the lack of support and the NEED for a e-Commerce module).

Yet, I can’t even BEGIN, or can’t even get started, because EE keeps dragging their feet, and won’t even be open (or HELP) their customer base (the developers that work hard in supporting EE, and willing to dedicate time into creating plugins for the users).

The majority of the stuff I do (ee plugins) is just stuff that I post to the forums/message boards and give away for FREE!  (To anyone in the community that wants to use it).

Some of the stuff, I even ask Paul or others to please implement into a future version of EE (as a standard feature).  Think AVATARS anyone?

I’m not trying to upset anyone at EE/Ellis Labs.  Listen, I’m a loyal fan (just as many of the other people in this forum that are complaining and ranting). 

What I am saying is, you are about to LOSE CUSTOMERS and LOSE YOUR FOLLOWERS.  The development of EE has been extremely EXTREMELY EXTREMELY slow.

In 4 1/2 years, you are still on the same 1.x release.  In only 2 years you went from pMachine to a complete new re-write to EE 1.x.  (in only 2 years).

By now, we should be getting ready for EE 4.0 to come out now.  Yet, we’re still waiting (4 1/2+ years now), for EE 2.0.

Now, I’m not saying that we should jump into new version numbers (and complete re-writes) every 2 years (that is a bit much), and I do like the stability of having a 2+ year cycle.  But keep in mind 2+ years is a very long time, and 4+ years is an EXTREMELY long time.  EE has really “fallen behind” in terms of being a “great CMS”.

It can’t even compare to Drupal, or Joomla (both are FREE CMS programs).  The “all volunteer” development teams of Drupal or Joomla are enormous and these guys can push advanced features out 4+ years faster than the Ellis Labs team can.

So what does this mean?  It means that EE is lagging (about 4+ years BEHIND the power curve).  What used to be a great and wonderful product (6+ years ago), now can’t even keep pace with ANY of the two major FREE (and open source) products like Joomla or Drupal.

So why am I still here?  Well first off, if anyone is SERIOUS about web development or a good CMS they would have migrated over to Drupal by now.

For those of us that keep hanging around here at Ellis Labs, it’s because we are HOPING and PRAYING that Ellis Labs (and my dear friend Rick who I love and appreciate for all this hard work and early PIONEERING on the early pMachine).  I’m here because I’m LOYAL.

That’s it.  Do I use Drupal?  Of course.  Do I use Joomla?  Yes.  Would I rather see EE come out with something that I can integrate with Drupal and Joomla?  Yes.

Ellis Labs just seems to small to even compete (seriously) with any of the major “Big Dogs”.  Everytime I read a post about something like “When is EE going to come out with an e-commerce module?” or “Will EE 2.0 have e-commerce?” or “Will EE 2.0 have a rating system?”

I think to myself, well Drupal and Joomla already have all those things (and it’s all FREE FREE FREE).

Now I really wish that Ellis Labs would just realize, that maybe they need to just give up on the “perfectionist” theory, and just release what they currently have as an ALPHA release (for developers).  Then later come out with a BETA release.  Then once they feel comfortable with the product, then release a FINAL BUILD (stable release).

Sure, they can always release updates to the stable release in the future (future releases), like a 2.1, or 2.2, or a 2.3 build.

But at least let us get started.  At least give us SOMETHING.  Something is better than nothing at this point.  I can understand everyone’s frustration, because I’ve been feeling the exact same way (for years), but I’ve just been keeping VERY TIGHT LIPPED about it.

Ronnie, the toothpaste analogy is an interesting one, but it doesn’t
really apply here.

The analogy, which became a mixed metaphor, certainly applies, as evidenced
by…

Of course you cannot make people forget the cat that is already
out of the tube.

OK, releasing information about EE 2.0 so far in advance of actual delivery
may not have been the best thing to do. Things happen. How does the EE team
make the best of that situation going forward? My recommendation for going
forward—to avoid the sighing and groaning of recent months—would be to
formalize the process of divulging information about EE, up to and
including the preview release, beta, testing, and final release date.

Ok, I understand what everyone else is saying, and why everyone is so upset at Ellis Labs right now.  I understand Ellis Lab’s logic between giving us a taste/preview (just to let us know that EE 2.0 is coming out), but I do agree that RonnieMC did make some good and valid points.

First off, if Ellis Labs want to stay in business… I suggest they begin caring more about their customer base. [I know that sounds harsh, and please don’t flame me for it, but I’m just being brutally honest with Rick, and the crew]

Second off, I love pMachine/EE, but every piece of software has it’s time, and it’s day in age.  As wonderful as Word 1.0 was, or as wonderful as Windows 3.1 was, those days are gone, and everyone wants to use Windows XP (or Vista), or Mac OS X 10.5 Leopard, or whatever.

People want a MODERN software release (with the most MODERN and up to date features).

Ellis Labs and EE are about 4+ years BEHIND everyone else in the game right now.  What started out as a “bleeding edge” product, instead has turned into a slow moving train, that is completely derailed.

The product life cycles are so slow paced, that the Community has to do about 85% of the work in adding the features that come STANDARD on most free and open source CMS software like Joomla or Drupal.

So does this NOT concern Rick?  Does this NOT concern Derek Jones?

Maybe Ellis Labs think they are “Bullet Proof” and that their fans will remain dedicated and loyal and won’t ever “Jump ship” and migrate/move over to a FREE product like Joomla, or Drupal which is much better supported, has thousands of standard (and FREE features) and really kicks the pants off of EE.

Why am I still here?  I’m just like all the other LOYAL Rick Ellis (early pMachine days) users.  Have I tinkered with Joomla?  Drupal?  You bet.  Do I like them?  I love them!

Why am I still here?  I’m here to at least TRY and bring Ellis Labs out of the 12th century, and try to bring them back into the 21st Century.

Ellis Labs is in the “dark ages” and they are still hammering on stone with a chisel and hammer, and acting like everything is ok.

I’m waving my hand in the air FRANTICLY, saying “Rick and Derek, let me PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE help you!”

Yet, the stubborn and hard-headedness continues.  Is this good for Ellis Labs?  Probably not.  Will Ellis Labs survive another year of this?  Not sure.

Just look at the CMS awards, and just look at where EE placed in the CMS awards over the past 3-4 years.

Well, Joomla and Drupal both have been fighting for FIRST PLACE for the past 3-4 years in a row.

Ellis Labs is not even in the top 10, top 20, or even top 50.  So yes, that’s pretty sad.

EE just doesn’t have the features that developers and users have come to EXPECT out of a CMS software package (out of a FREE ONE, not to mention something that people have to actually PAY for).

To be honest, EE probably isn’t even worth $5 at this point (when you can download Drupal or Joomla for FREE).  So it’s hard to swallow something like $49, or even $99, or even $149, or even $249, for something as PRIMITIVE and OUT DATED as pMachine/EE.

Do you realize how SLOW EE 1.x is, compared to something like Joomla or Drupal?  Just the page loads alone, take 8-10 times longer.  Why?  God only knows, but maybe you can talk to the developers over at Joomla and Drupal and try to figure out why EE is such a sub-par product in this day in age.

What would I like to see happen?  Well, I would like to at least see a EE 2.0 Alpha or Beta get released.  So at least the EE Community can start working TOGETHER to at least dig Rick Ellis and his crew out of this BIG HUGE MESS they are in.

If not, then Ellis Labs will probably go the fate of the toilet.  I know that’s pretty harsh, but I’m just being brutally honest.  Why on earth would anyone pay for an outdated product, when they can get something a hundred times better for FREE?

So what does Ellis Labs need to do to COMPETE with free and open source software?  Well, I suggest they begin releasing their Alpha’s and Beta’s on a timely and regular basis (daily distro’s, and even have a CVS for the latest Alpha/Beta builds).

This way developers from the EE Community can at least HELP with some of the development of EE 2.0, and slowly try to get EE out of this mess they are in.

I know I for one, would love to help.  Why would I waste my time coding for an outdated product like EE?  When I could be helping other FREE communities like Joomla or Drupal?

Well, I started out in 2002 with pMachine (as an early pMachine 1.0 and pMachine 1.1 user).

I bought my first “commercial” (it was called pMachine Pro back then) license, and I’ve always been a fan, and dedicated follower of the pMachine (and eventual EE) movement/community.

Where am I at today?  Well, I’ve been frustrated for about 3 1/2 years now (at the snail’s pace crawl in which Ellis Labs is moving).

I see Rick Ellis as a great man, with vision, but the EE crew (paid staff) refuse to admit that they need HELP.

We’ve built EE together, dare I say 😊

Completely agree with this. Its one of the reasons 2.0 will be on CI.

We’ll consider a feature list after the Developer Preview is available. I’m not promising anything but we’ll be in a much better position to share a lot more things after the Developer Preview and initial betas are available. Until then, we’re all going to have to be patient.

Leslie, I completely agree.

Maybe Rick can’t afford to hire a team of 50-100 developers.  Very understandable, but if he wants to SELL his product, then he may want to consider this.

Either he needs to HIRE (and pay) 50-100+ developers (so that he can compete with simple FREE open source software like Joomla, or Drupal), or he needs to just wave the white flag and give up.

Do I want to see Rick give up?  Absolutely not.  I would rather see Rick (and Derek) just admit defeat, and just admit that they NEED HELP from the community, and stop trying to do all this “alone”.

Although I commend the “Lone Ranger” on his fine work, it’s just taking way, way, way too long for the “Lone Ranger” to get anything done.

So my advice is, at least release what you have as an Alpha, and at least let some of the other developers in the EE community that want (and are willing) to volunteer some of their VALUABLE time to dedicate to not a FREE project, but actually a COMMERCIAL product which Rick Ellis and his crew make money on.

It seems like a big CONTRADICTION in terms, but yes… I’m one of those VERY FEW people that would take the time to help Alpha and Beta test a product (and yes, try to help with module and plugin development), just to try and “bridge the gap” between products like Drupal and Joomla, and the old aging dinosaur (called EE).

If Rick is scared about “losing money” by releasing an Alpha or a Beta, then just say “We are willing to release a “Pre-Release” Alpha for “early adopters” and just let those early adopters GIVE YOU THEIR MONEY right now.

I know that sounds crazy, but I’m just being honest.  Give me the option to PAY NOW (instead of paying in 6 months, or paying in year, or paying in 10 years, whenever the Ellis Lab crew finally agrees to release the EE 2.0 version).

So just let me PAY NOW, and post the Alpha 2.0 release to my user account, so that I can download a version of the Alpha 2.0 release.

That’s all I’m asking.  Rick isn’t losing ANY money.  Ellis Labs isn’t losing ANY money.  At least Rick will see a FLOOD of new money coming in (as everyone begins to swarm in, and try to pick up the 2.0 Alpha) so some of the early adopters can work on creating modules, and plugins for the EE 2.0 Final Release.

At least this way in 8-12 weeks, users will begin to see a flood of new modules for the EE 2.0 release popping up in the EE store/marketplace.

This would be good for the EE users, and good for the EE community.  Some of the developers may just hand their work over to Rick (for free) and say “Hey Rick, would you mind adding this feature to the next EE release, and here’s my code for free…”

I’m sure Rick would look at it, and if its’ a good idea, good feature, he may just include it for free as part of a EE 2.1 Final Release.

As more and more users contribute their work, and contribute their new features (that they’ve always wanted added to EE) then slowly EE will become a more “mature” product.

Right now, EE is in the stone ages, and it’s a primitive and is in it’s early infancy.  That bothers me, because something that was EXTREMELY advanced (back in 2002) is now just a defunct project, and an old dying dinosaur that is trying to fight extinction.

At least let some of us come alongside, and knock the dust off of ExpressionEngine/EE and knock the dust off of Ellis Labs, and begin trying to help this product compete with something like Joomla or Drupal.

How can you even honestly sell something, when it doesn’t even compete with a FREE PRODUCT?

That makes no sense at all.  Do I want to see EE mature?  Do I want to see EE survive?  Absolutely, or I wouldn’t be here right now reading all these rants and complaints.

I’ve sat here, and kept my MOUTH SHUT for 2-3 years now, and just stayed “tight lipped” about most of it.  Haven’t said a word.

When I see things that “need change” or “need fixing”, I used to be able to send Rick Ellis a message (personally) and say “Hey Rick…” or “Hey Paul…” and throw an idea out there, and say “I would like to do this.. any ideas on how I could do this in EE, and integrate it with the pMachine/EE product?”

Sometimes if it was EASY Rick would just make the changes himself, and send me the one or two updated files that I needed.  Whammo, done!  (those were the way, way, way early days of pMachine 1.0, 1.1, 1.2, and 1.3 back in early 2002).

Those days seem to be gone.  Now Rick doesn’t even respond or reply.  Poor guy probably doesn’t even have the time.

Right now, all I’m asking is that Ellis Labs/Rick Ellis, just please make an “Executive Decision” and at least try to determine the future fate of Ellis Labs.

Stop being so secretive, stop being so “tight lipped” and just learn to setup a separate “Developer’s Forum” dedicated specifically to Community DEVELOPERS of the EE product (developers that work on Modules and plugins specifically designed for EE).

Then give those users access to the latest nightly/daily builds.  Setup a CVS, and just let us download, and make changes to the latest builds, and also comment our changes.