Thread

I just launched the redesign of my site (EE thread here). This is my first ever build from scratch and needless to say I’m quite pleased with myself. There is still some work to be done - can’t seem to get forms to change color on activation, but that’s not important right now.

In the next while I am intending to change careers and am looking to move into web design. I know how many hours it took me, now I need to know how much more efficient I need to get good at web developing/design. If I were approached by a client to redesign my site I have no idea how much to charge. How many “pages” is my site? Looking at this site how many hours of photoshop/coding would you expect to put into it? Would you charge a flat rate or go with billing by the hour? What are the advantages to both options?

Any other advice?

If these questions are too much for a public forum, I apologize and will understand if you do not answer all of them - just looking for advice here.

thank you for your time.

Sean

Here is some reading by Kurt that I thought was pretty good reading and insight into the industry.

http://ellislab.com/blog/entry/total_cost_of_ownership_part_ii/
http://ellislab.com/blog/entry/landing_that_first_client/

All the best!

I’ve been an independent web designer for a bit over three years. Definitely read the articles mentioned in the previous post—it’s great information.

My own experience might not be typical, but I’ll mention a few things that I didn’t really anticipate when starting out (and which might have made me think twice 😉)

* I never realized how much there is to learn! Nowadays, being a web designer really is a multi-disciplinary field. You really need to be able to hand-code valid, standards-aware HTML & CSS in your sleep. You need to know enough about JavaScript to understand the DOM, use accessible scripts, and (at minimum) use a good JS library. You need to understand typography and classic design theory. You need to be fluent in Photoshop, Illustrator, Dreamweaver (your clients use it) FrontPage (you’ll be fixing lots of FP sites). That’s just an overview… and remember, six months is an eternity in the web world, so be prepared to spend some time every week keeping up!

* Getting enough clients to stay afloat is tough. You can’t just sit back & wait for them to knock on your door. You’ll need to spend some time every week in self-promotion. You’ll need to be patient and persistent—some clients take months to commit to a project.

* Don’t undercharge, but don’t price yourself out of your market. It’s easy to hear someone say “I’m worth $100 an hour,” but most small businesses can’t afford to pay someone that much, no matter how good you are. Who are your prospective clients? How much can they realistically afford? What’s your competition charging? Pricing is probably the hardest part of the business, and it’s pretty specific to your market & niche, so it’s something you’ll have to determine largely by trial and error.

* And speaking of the competition, there’s a lot of it! It’s really easy for someone to get a website these days—hosted sites, templates, WYSIWYGs, the kid next door, etc. etc. How will you differentiate yourself from the competition? What services do you offer that make you more desirable than the next guy? You can’t compete on price, because websites are virtually free.

* It takes a while to get your business up and running. You’ll be spending a lot of time in the beginning doing things you can’t charge anyone for, such as: writing a business plan; setting up your record keeping; getting a good contract/agreement; making your business cards, letterhead, & advertising; learning applications; assessing your market & building your professional network; etc. etc. The conventional wisdom is that you should have six month’s living expenses in the bank before you strike out on your own, or have another regular source of income. Expect lean times in your first 2 or 3 years!

I hope I haven’t discouraged you in any way…Web design is great field, but it’s not an easy one. It’s very challenging and very rewarding!

Best of luck :-D

P.S. There’s a great forum over at HOW that covers a lot of business issues faced by independent designers. I highly recommend spending some time there:

http://forum.howdesign.com/tt.aspx?forumid=6

Lebisol & Adrian,
Thanks for your responses, I’ll definitely check all 3 links suggested.

I’m not discouraged, but am a little overwhelmed by everything that I need to know. XHTML, CSS & photoshop are coming along - everything else is starting from zero.

In two weeks I start art classes and am hoping that will help me with my design.

Ok firstly at least in the UK it is not legal to discuss prices due to price fixing legislation.
Secondly on a technical note do not add valid XHTML icons to pages when they are not, better to correct the problems or remove the icons.

The world is full of web designers, most with illegal copies of Dreamweaver and a liking for tables and sliced images. Making a living in such a crowded and fashionable field is far from easy and in todays market you need exceptional skills to get noticed plus a lot of luck). Better to learn programming languages such as Actionscript, Ajax/JS for example plus be very aware of not just current technologies like PHP, XHTML/CSS but also emerging ones like Flex.

Good programmers command high prices, designers are ten a penny.

The Linguist,
I would not stress over learning “programming” per say as it is vague of term as is “learning computers”. My education and profession is actually on the admin and engineering side while at the same time studies things such as C++, Pascal and VB which are compleatly non-apliable for web desing - what a waste of my friday nights. Well, sort of it, it helped me apprechaite the data structure and data organization…but the lines of code that manage to add 2 numbers were a waste.

I would not stress of over learning “newest and greatest”...look at Flash…ones a ‘must know…hot…hot hot’ since everyone wanted a TV comercial spinning on their sites. That blew over….what is the need for flash generally speaking today? Perhaps as much as a logo or header, banner…that is it.
You don’t know JSP - Outsource!
Learn to share and network with professionals…why bother compeating with a PHP guru if you can hire one for small project. 😉
You learn how to swim so you can go swiming not so you can swim 20 mile marathon right away.
Indentify your clients…are going to work with artists, journalists, large corporations that run 10 flavors of database and want their in-house P.O.S to be available on-line, perhaps non-porfits, doctors, education industry….
Like 69-Design said…there is alot of designers out there…there is a lot of programmers out there…you need to find your place. I have met many graphics deisgners and photographers who are brillian at what they do but can’t write a single line of html….here is a lightbulb moment…partner up with them and have them create cool-little icons and images while you do the rest….client contact and interaction, QC…etc.
I have to have someone call (not for web) and say “I got your business card at…”. They are mainly referals and word of mouth so network with other pros.
One thing that is nice about this community is the amount of professionals who don’t mind sharing.
Look throgh the pro network here mabye establish some 1-on-1 with some of the companies here….perhaps they can outsource some work for you to get your feet wet.
Bottom lines, people work with people and it is not just about how many hours you can crank out in front of the screen and code.
These some of my findings as someone who is MIS by day, photograher and web enthusiast by night
😊
All the best!

If you can honestly access how long it is going to take you to do, then it doesn’t matter if you charge per project or per hourly rate. Quoting is the thing, you give your word to do a project for X-dollars and you pretty well have to stick to that.

I’ve attempted to clock a few things that I’m doing on my own personal projects and it honestly makes me nervous. These are my own projects, the look and feel of those are entirely my decision. It made me feel as though I needed to rush things, having a stop watch going.
Efficency is important, if you are working for yourself, you don’t have to worry about the clock per se, but you do have to worry about your next meal, and bills to pay.
Doesn’t help figure out what or how to charge probably, sorry just mark it down to input.
People will ask, “how much do you charge per site”, like it’s that easy to give a flat rate or something no matter the project. It is important to determine the scope of the project, and see if you can get a bit of a hint on what the client’s budget is. If they have a budget in mind, maybe the scope of the project will have to be limited, all I’m getting at there. Many times determining the budget, the client might think you just want to take everything on the table, and are not concerned with the value of your services.

First of all, 69-design, it’s not illegal for professionals to discuss pricing. It’s illegal for professionals to agree to fix prices. Check out this link from the US Department of Justice:

http://www.usdoj.gov/atr/public/guidelines/211578.htm

Here are two discussions covering what web & design workers charge (one from the UK):

http://joshuaink2006.johnoxton.co.uk/blog/256/how-much-do-you-charge

http://peterflaschner.com/archives/289

69-design, I take issue with your statement that “designers are ten a penny.” I’ll go so far as to say that the internet would still be a tiny, obscure refuge for lonely geeks if graphic designers, illustrators, video artists, and the like hadn’t entered the game and made it the multimedia-rich environment it is now. At starting positions, designers command similar compensation levels as do IT professionals—and at high-level positions, considerably more.

Sean, web design isn’t programming, although programming is an important aspect of the field. It’s called web design, right? It’s true that as a web professional you should be very fluent in HTML and CSS, as they are the lingua franca of the web. Outside of that, you certainly can’t be an expert in all the other computer technologies out there, and as several posters have mentioned a good strategy is to partner with professionals who are experts in the technologies you wish to incorporate in your work.

In my own work, I’ve found that my design background (I’d been doing design of different sorts for thirty years before I started in web work) has been extremely valuable to me in terms of creating a market for my business. Understanding form, color, composition, and other facets of classic design training will allow you to work in virtually any visual medium. You’re not locked into a technology that will become obsolete in a matter of months. With a solid background in Design, you could later pursue industrial design, photography, motion graphics, what have you.

When you’re just starting out, it’s important to get a lot of experience fast. Do work for friends, family, clubs, nonprofits, etc.—even if it’s for a very modest rate—you need to build a portfolio to show what you can do. Look at all sorts of media, not just websites. Look at video, magazines, go to museums & art galleries. Absorb yourself in visual art. Draw, paint, and sketch. Do personal projects for yourself, just to stretch your abilities. Try different styles. Make one basic HTML site and make three totally different layouts and designs, using just CSS and images. Play!

P.S. In order to know how much to charge, you need to know how long it takes you to do something. Get set up with a time-tracking system and use it religiously. I really like:

http://www.getcashboard.com/

Lots of solid advice here.

1) I’ve already got someone to outsource photoshop work that is beyond my skill.
2) I’m working on redesigns of my own sites to add to portfolio
3) going to donate a site to a friend as a gift (he, or rather his wife, just had a baby)
4) planning on creating a couple of sites to to donate to the community - templates for people new to EE
5) Will definitely check out the time tracking system that Adrienne linked to.

Re: lean years - a concern but my current job affords me tons of free time (5 months of vacation and only 4 day work weeks), so I’ll be able to keep working while I learn. But I’m planning on moving out of the country so will need a new career when I return to Canada. In any case for the next three years I’m planning on building my skills, network and reputation.

Thank you all for the advice