Thread

the upgrade fee for purchasers of 1.6.3 is likely to just be the price difference between 1.6.3 and 2.0.

Example: I buy a car and a one-year service for this car.

In 6 month my dealer comes and says I must pay for my own car because the manufacturer raised the price.

I understand I must pay if I want other or another car. I must buy it for the new price. But to pay additional amounts for my own car? I cannot understand that.

Or I can understand that I must pay if I was informed by my dealer I would have to pay not only for the yearly service, but also pay for the price increase on the market from time to time.

I can understand if the ExpressionEngine CMS is closed but it will have support for some time (I think I have the right to know how long). And I can buy a new CMS (at a discount).

So, my questions: Is EE v.2.x a new CMS or a new version? Should I pay for the EE price increases on the market (to use new versions of my EE)? Is my EE product closed? How long will it have technical support with Download Account Renewals?

P.S. I think these questions are logical and natural. If my logic is incorrect, please correct me. Thanks.

Once you have purchased a licence for EE1.6.3 it’s yours to use forever, the same as if you bought a car. You don’t have to pay any more to continue using 1.6.3 ever.

Now, EE2.0 is like the car manufacturer bringing out a totally brand new version of your car model. You don’t have to buy it, you can still use your 1.6.3 model, but if you want the latest model it’s most likely going to cost a bit more than the older version because it’s got a lot more features and so on.

Put in the context of a car, if you want the latest version (2.0) you can trade your old version in but you’ll have to pay a bit more to get it because it’s much better then the old version with all the latest gadgets and gizmos, plus better performance (hopefully!).

Does that make sense?

totally brand new version

What is “totally brand new version”?

Is 1.5 or 1.6 “a totally brand new version”?
Or they are “new versions”?

Why is 1.5 a new version, but v.2.0 is a totally new version?

Is/Was there any pre-sales FAQ on “EE totally brand new versions”? I don’t know what this term means legally.

You don’t have to buy it, you can still use your 1.6.3 model

I could still use 1.4. That is not a problem.

if you want the latest model it’s most likely going to cost a bit more than the older version because it’s got a lot more features and so on

If I want the latest model I buy ‘Download Account Renewal’. According to the EE terms and conditions:

... access to our download area where you can download free updates for one year. After one year, if you want to continue accessing the download area for continued updates, you can purchase a yearly renewal.

No problems at all.

you can trade your old version in

That is a mistake. I may not sell my old versions.
I don’t have the right to do that.

Restrictions
... you may not: ...
- Sell, ... the Software or portions thereof.

So, I didn’t buy a ‘version’ or ‘software’:

I can sell my license:

ExpressionEngine Personal license

And my license has no number (1.x or 2.x). So, I don’t understand exactly why I should pay an additional payment for my own license.

As a purchaser of ‘Download Account Renewal’, I have the right to ‘free updates for one year’ for my product:

Download Account Renewals
Current Licenses
ExpressionEngine Personal License

sigork, there will be more information concerning licensing of EE 2.0 as we get closer to the actual release date. Just for the record, EllisLab have been very fair in their upgrading deals in the past, and I am absolutely certain that EE 2.0 will not be an exception here. In the meantime, starting a discussion like this in the middle of a three-day-weekend probably doesn’t make very much sense.

In the meantime, starting a discussion like this in the middle of a three-day-weekend probably doesn’t make very much sense.

I started this thread on Sunday (not in any “middle”), and I see no big difference between Sunday and Monday because I participate in this forum when I have some free time. I don’t think I should start topics when I have no time 😊

Yes, you will most likely have to pay for EE 2.0

So, could you, Ingmar, answer as a lawyer on which basis the license holders “most likely have to pay for” their own already bought licenses an additional payment?

Because the bought product is ‘ExpressionEngine license’. Not Version 1 or Version 2.

I don’t understand the legal situation when a seller says that somebody “most likely has to pay for” his/her own thing once again.

Could you clarify that? I think the available information on the situation is sufficient (for me at last).

Thanks.

P.S. That is not an urgent issue, you can reply next week or in a week.

I started this thread on Sunday (not in any “middle”), and I see no big difference between Sunday and Monday because I participate in this forum when I have some free time.

Unbeknownst to you, this past monday happened to be a public holiday in the US.

So, could you, Ingmar, answer as a lawyer on which basis the license holders “most likely have to pay for” their own already bought licenses an additional payment?

No, I certainly don’t give legal advice on these forums. Let me repeat: There will be more information concerning licensing of EE 2.0 as we get closer to the actual release date. Thank you.

OK, if there is no counterargument now, I can wait.

Thanks.

>>Why is 1.5 a new version, but v.2.0 is a totally new version?

Software typically uses whole numbers to indicate version upgrades with significantly new features.  This is nothing new and nothing EllisLab has concocted to inconvenience customers.

As has been explained very completely and fairly by others, it is entirely reasonable for a company to charge an upgrade fee for a version which has significant new features, has major portions of its codebase totally rewritten, etc.  EllisLab will not force customers to upgrade.

I never upgraded beyond Word 2000, as I don’t need the features of later versions.  I’ll be happy to upgrade those EE installs I have which will benefit from 2.0’s new features.

it is entirely reasonable for a company to charge an upgrade fee for a version which has significant new features, has major portions of its codebase totally rewritten, etc.

Yes, that is entirely reasonable. And I regularly pay this upgrade fee:

You can upgrade to the latest full version of ExpressionEngine using the ‘Download’ link and following the update instructions in the User Guide.

https://secure.expressionengine.com/download.php

What’s the problem?

If the price for “upgrade to the latest full version of ExpressionEngine” is low, it can be increased. No problem to do in such a way.

For example, this month vBulletin has increased the price and the upgrade fee. Now I must pay not $30, but $40. But there is no payment for the price difference for vB ($180 - $160 = zero for me).

Word 2000

“Word 2000” and “Word XP” are not versions. They are brands, different products. There was no “update fee”, there was a discount for new additional licenses (for some time).

ExpressionEngine v.1.x and ExpressionEngine v.2.x are the same brand: “ExpressionEngine”.

So, I don’t need a new license for EE v.2. That is the same product. But why to pay for the same license twice? That was my question.

Word 2000 and XP are indeed versions, not different products, identified by the fact that you can purchase the new version with upgrade pricing, same as for Windows XP (5.1) / Vista (6.0).  Why in the world you think that 1.x and 2.x cannot have different licenses and purchasing requirements is beyond me.  Owning a software license does not entitle you to free access to future development, that’s just common sense.  Your license entitles you to the software that you purchased, not the brand.  Legally speaking, your purchase is for the current version.  We are not even obligated to allow you access to or lower pricing for subpoint (1.6.1, 1.6.2, etc.) releases.  But we do with an active download account, which compared to many other software business models is incredibly fair.  Even your example of vBulletin:

Now I must pay not $30, but $40. But there is no payment for the price difference for vB ($180 - $160 = zero for me).

So it sounds like the new price is $20 higher, but the upgrade price is $10.  You’re still paying more.  Since we have made no official announcement on pricing other than saying that we will be fair, I think you’re getting your feathers ruffled prematurely.

Derek,

I perfectly understand that there is no official info available at this time, and this is not to try getting that ... just trying to clarify one of Sigorks remarks - maybe Leslie could address it at some point.

While I don’t see any reason not charging more for a new version and also charging an upgrade fee for current users (10$ or 20$ seems to be very reasonable for me), Sigorks remark seems valid and natural to me at least regarding the renewal of download accounts:

After one year, if you want to continue accessing the download area for continued updates, you can purchase a yearly renewal.

So, what happens if someone renews today? Will he get access to “continued updates” in the EE 1.x branch only? That would raise the question if EE 1.x will still be supported after the release of EE 2.0. Will he get access to updates in the new EE 2.0 branch in that year as well (is EE 2.0 a “continued update” to EE 1.x?)? Or - without paying the additional upgrade fee - will he have no access to updates at all?

(Somehow, this addresses the question if it is better to renew now or renew after EE 2.0 is out or if it doesn’t matter at all.)

Best regards
Markus

That’s a good question, Markus, and one that we do have an official response for.  An active download account will not entitle you to a free upgrade to 2.0, as stated in the FAQ, but neither are you penalized for renewing before 2.0’s release.  I’m fine going on the record stating that support for 1.x will continue for a decent time period.

Edited to add some bullet points:

* Your download account gives you access to download whatever licenses you own.  There will not be separate download account purchases required.
* Your license is for the software version you are purchasing, and lasts forever.  There is no obligation to upgrade, nor does your software or license ever expire.
* Active/inactive download account has no bearing on receiving support.

Thanks for that clarifications, Derek. (Honestly, I didn’t know that the download renewal was already addressed ... must have missed that somehow.)

And it is good to know that EE 1.x will be supported for some more time. 😊

Please correct the information in Download Account Renewals.

It should be (underlined):

Included with your license is access to our download area where you can download some (not all) free updates for one year. After one year, if you want to continue accessing the download area for some (not all) continued updates, you can purchase a yearly renewal.

P.S. Otherwise I understand the original text as I “can download the latest version of ExpressionEngine”. But unfortunately this information is not completely correct (I think), because accessing the Download Area is not enough to download the latest version of ExpressionEngine. As I understand v.2.0 will be “the latest version of ExpressionEngine” very soon.

But you’re finishing your quote too soon (italics mine).

you can download the latest version of ExpressionEngine you own

So no additional clarification is needed there, though I think we can take your first suggestion into consideration and revise the store description to be more explicit.  It’s not incorrect as it stands, since it refers to licenses that you own, but if it will help the clarity of that statement, we can add specificity.