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Frustration with EE

May 04, 2008 4:15am

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  • #16 / May 04, 2008 11:49am

    richrf

    28 posts

    So…just curious.  Did you look at the link I posted to the “Building an ExpressionEngine Site” series on my blog, or is it not what you were looking for?

    I’m really trying to put out content that will help people get familiar with EE, so am always looking for feedback on what I’ve done so far.

    Hi Michael,

    I have no less than eight tabs open right now that point to documentation or tutorials that might help me understand EE architecture and weblog relationships. 😊 This is one of the issues. The information is scattered in two many places without hyperlinks between them. I think the original poster was referring to this general problem with the documentation/blogs/forum postings.

    Can you point me to the blog posting(s) that you are referring to? I would appreciate it.  I would very much like to look them over. One issue that I have with the blogs right now is that a series of related blogs are not really linked together by “related links” in the posting. Am I missing it? If not, it would be a good feature to have.

    Thanks for your help, and I will definitely look over your postings when I get the links.

    Rich

  • #17 / May 04, 2008 11:51am

    magnitofon

    6 posts

    So…just curious.  Did you look at the link I posted to the “Building an ExpressionEngine Site” series on my blog, or is it not what you were looking for?

    Yes I am actually there right now. I wanted to post a comment but don’t want to register. I am in your 6th chapter. This is exactly what Ellis Lab should do + include screen shots or even video tutorials. Their video tutorials are almost useless. Why don’t they do it - I don’t understand.

    In your case what I’d do (maybe you already did, I just didn’t read all your posts) is to upload a complete site (anything that has to be entered into EE) or just a MySQL export of the EE for your church site + additional directory structure (e.g. directories for images etc) with CHMOD permissions etc. I assume that EE database will contain the html/css code for the page templates.

    See, if I have this, just a DB of a working site, I won’t need their documentation as much. I would deduct most of it from an existing example. And this is exactly what I suggest EE developers to do - to post an example of a simple working site where most of their features are used. I’d pay them whatever, a $100 for it, rather then wasting time on their knowledge base.

  • #18 / May 04, 2008 11:55am

    Sue Crocker

    26054 posts

    Rich, EE itself does the heavy lifting for your table joins. Most of the time you don’t need to do the heavy lifting yourself.

    During the install process, there is a template group called site. In that template group you have a limited sample of tasks you can use with EE.

    For instance, there is an example entry. The code is there to add a comment. There is a comments template, as well as an RSS feed, an archives page, referrers, trackbacks, etc.

    In your example, you have a design with categories, ratings and comments.

    Categories and comments are a part of the exp:weblog:entries tag. Ratings aren’t built into EE, but there is at least one third party offering.

    If you look at the sample that comes with EE, you’ll see the following code:

    <div id="blog">
    
    {exp:weblog:category_heading weblog="{my_weblog}"}
    <h2>{category_name}</h2>
    <p>{if category_description}<br />
    {category_description}<br />
    {/if}<br />
    {/exp:weblog:category_heading}</p>
    
    <p><br />
    {exp:weblog:entries weblog="{my_weblog}" orderby="date" sort="desc" limit="15" disable="member_data|trackbacks"}</p>
    
    <p><div class="entry"></p>
    
    <p>{date_heading}<br />
    <h3 class="date">{entry_date format=' %l, %F %d, %Y '}</h3><br />
    {/date_heading}</p>
    
    <p><h2 class="title">{title}</h2><br />
    {summary}</p>
    
    <p>{body}</p>
    
    <p>{extended}</p>
    
    <p><div class="posted">Posted by {author} on {entry_date format='%m/%d'} at {entry_date format='%h:%i %A'}</p>
    
    
    
    <p><br />
    {categories}<br />
    <a href="http://{path=site_index}">{category_name}</a> •<br />
    {/categories}</p>
    
    <p>{if allow_comments}<br />
    ({comment_total}) <a href="http://{url_title_path=">Comments</a> •<br />
    {/if}</p>
    
    <p>{if allow_trackbacks}<br />
    ({trackback_total}) <a href="http://{trackback_path=">Trackbacks</a> •<br />
    {/if}<br />
    <a href="http://{title_permalink={my_template_group}/index}">Permalink</a></p>
    
    <p></div></p>
    
    <p>{paginate}</p>
    
    <p><div class="paginate"></p>
    
    <p><span class="pagecount">Page {current_page} of {total_pages} pages</span>  {pagination_links}</p>
    
    <p></div></p>
    
    <p>{/paginate}</p>
    
    <p></div></p>
    
    <p>{/exp:weblog:entries}</p>
    
    <p></div>

    {my_template_group} and {my_weblog} are assigned at the top of the template.

    There are two tables that are used for weblogs or data containers.

    exp_weblog_titles and exp_weblog_data.

    Comments are found in exp_comments. You can join to it via the entry_id field, which is found in exp_weblog_titles and exp_weblog_data.

    I have to run off to pick up grandchildren.. but is this of any help?

  • #19 / May 04, 2008 12:07pm

    Boyink!

    5011 posts

    Building an ExpressionEngine Site - Small Business on Boyink.com.  In addition to the category page there are links at the bottom of each post to the previous and next posts in the series.  Commenting here is open.

    Building a Church Site on ExpressionEngine on Train-ee.com.  Commenting here does require registration.

    The church site tutorial isn’t yet complete - so I can’t offer the full version in one .zip file yet.  The Small Business book does include all the completed code templates.

    As to the “Why don’t they do it” - speaking here as just me and not in any official capacity - EllisLab is still young, and have always been a very lean company - 2 or three employees there for quite some time.  These tutorials and code samples are very time-consuming to produce, and are shooting at a moving target since EE has been under continuous development since its inception. Focus has simply been more on development and tech support.  That’s entirely the reason I started the tutorial series on Boyink.com to begin with - to help fill the gaps and provide some of that training/learning where I could.

  • #20 / May 04, 2008 12:11pm

    richrf

    28 posts

    So…just curious.  Did you look at the link I posted to the “Building an ExpressionEngine Site” series on my blog, or is it not what you were looking for?

    I’m really trying to put out content that will help people get familiar with EE, so am always looking for feedback on what I’ve done so far.

    Hi Michael,

    I located your blog and will be reading through it. It looks very helpful, though I am not sure it goes as in-depth into the relational handling (relationship feature) as I might need. However, I have just gone through it very quickly, and will give it a detail read today.

    Thanks very much for your helpful blog.

    Rich

  • #21 / May 04, 2008 12:16pm

    richrf

    28 posts

    Thanks Sue and Michael for the links. I will be working through the information today and tomorrow. I am sure that once I sit down and begin working on examples, the capabilities and limitations of weblog relationship definition will become more clear. However, it is obvious that the capability is very powerful and missing from most of the CMSs that I have looked at so far.

    Thank you again for your assistance.

    Rich

  • #22 / May 04, 2008 12:31pm

    magnitofon

    6 posts

    Building an ExpressionEngine Site - Small Business on Boyink.com.  In addition to the category page there are links at the bottom of each post to the previous and next posts in the series.  Commenting here is open.

    Well, this part is exactly what I don’t get -
    part of it is on site “A”, part on site “B”, part in a book “C” and so on. In order to find out about “A”, “B”, “C”,...,“Z”, you have to register on this forum and search threads or start your own thread. Or do Google. I mean whatever except going to a single source where I can find all of it.

    I understand that you don’t have manpower, but someone has time to keep their own blogs about this topic. Why don’t you just co-operate and create one great resource?

  • #23 / May 04, 2008 12:34pm

    Boyink!

    5011 posts

    So…just curious.  Did you look at the link I posted to the “Building an ExpressionEngine Site” series on my blog, or is it not what you were looking for?

    I’m really trying to put out content that will help people get familiar with EE, so am always looking for feedback on what I’ve done so far.

    Hi Michael,

    I located your blog and will be reading through it. It looks very helpful, though I am not sure it goes as in-depth into the relational handling (relationship feature) as I might need. However, I have just gone through it very quickly, and will give it a detail read today.

    Thanks very much for your helpful blog.

    Rich

    As I stated previously - I didn’t cover relationships in the small business series as it was intended to be more of a beginner tutorial.  Relationships come naturally to us ex-database guys but are a more advanced concept for those coming to EE from the more traditional designer/web developer roles.

  • #24 / May 04, 2008 12:38pm

    magnitofon

    6 posts

    Or,

    How much would someone charge to add EE to a simple static site such as this one http://www.cdamx.com/ or http://adcapitalindustries.com/ (2nd one has 2nd level navigation and password protected pages)?

    I guess if someone did it for me then I could go into the set up and see how everything works and replicate on other sites.

  • #25 / May 04, 2008 12:46pm

    Boyink!

    5011 posts

    Building an ExpressionEngine Site - Small Business on Boyink.com.  In addition to the category page there are links at the bottom of each post to the previous and next posts in the series.  Commenting here is open.

    Well, this part is exactly what I don’t get -
    part of it is on site “A”, part on site “B”, part in a book “C” and so on. In order to find out about “A”, “B”, “C”,...,“Z”, you have to register on this forum and search threads or start your own thread. Or do Google. I mean whatever except going to a single source where I can find all of it.

    I understand that you don’t have manpower, but someone has time to keep their own blogs about this topic. Why don’t you just co-operate and create one great resource?

    The small business series is entirely on Boyink.com.  At the end I had a number of requests for it compiled into a book, so did that while keeping the blog series available for free.  Between needing a place to offer the book and also wanting to offer additional EE training I needed a more focused site - so launched Train-ee.com.  The church series - and any EE tutorials I write in the future - will be entirely on Train-ee.com.

    Just to be clear - I’m a part-time employee of EllisLab and my role is to build a system/plan to test future versions of EE before release. I still run Boyink Interactive and now Train-ee on my own and the time I’ve spent writing the tutorials is completely on my own dime.

    I understand your frustration - but for me it was entirely a question of the quickest way to get from point A to point B.

  • #26 / May 04, 2008 12:54pm

    richrf

    28 posts

    As I stated previously - I didn’t cover relationships in the small business series as it was intended to be more of a beginner tutorial.  Relationships come naturally to us ex-database guys but are a more advanced concept for those coming to EE from the more traditional designer/web developer roles.

    Understand entirely. Thanks again for all of your very helpful information.

    Regards,
    Rich

  • #27 / May 04, 2008 12:56pm

    magnitofon

    6 posts

    I understand your frustration - but for me it was entirely a question of the quickest way to get from point A to point B.

    Michael, thanks. I do appreciate that you do it. And I hope that I don’t sound like a jerk, ‘cause I am not. As I said, I really hoped (and still do) to find a simple and powerful CMS platform and laid my eye on EE but since I started trying to use it, I got frustrated - if I had more time or patience then I would be okay, I am a PHP/MySQL programmer originally even though I don’t do it too much lately, so I know EE is not a rocket science in the end of the day, and as originally posted my frustration is with documentation and lack of real life examples.

    Anyway, if anyone could implement EE on one of my sites for a fair compensation then please let me know.

  • #28 / May 04, 2008 1:16pm

    Boyink!

    5011 posts

    And I hope that I don’t sound like a jerk, ‘cause I am not.

    Nope…not at all.  And just know that I agree in the area of training and education there is a lot of room for improvement.  For my part I had a window of time in which to get something out there, so hope in the end that the approach I’ve taken provides value rather than further muddying the waters. 

    Anyway, if anyone could implement EE on one of my sites for a fair compensation then please let me know.

    For this I’d recommend investigating using the EE Job Board.

    Good luck with the project no matter which way you end up going with it.

    And now for some outside time on a sunny Sunday..😉

  • #29 / May 04, 2008 3:28pm

    walpow

    133 posts

    I’d like to echo the sentiment of the original post. Learning EE has been, without doubt, the hardest computer-related self-education experience I’ve ever had - and I’ve been in IT since it was called DP. (Since 1973, to be exact.) And I don’t think it’s because it’s inherently more difficult than, say, IBM’s IMS and CICS way back when, or any of the countless PC programs/systems I’ve worked with in the last twenty years.

    The problem, I think, is that EE has a particular way of dealing with things that’s inherently hard to grasp. I’ve read several posts that relate the “Aha!” moment when it all becomes clear. A month in, and I still haven’t had that moment. (I have had a few minor ahs.) The examples, the Boyink stuff (no offense intended), everything else I’ve read don’t really address this, and these past weeks have been trial and error extravaganzas. There’s no big picture document that explains where everything fits in. The template and tag sections of the manual are a start, but they don’t do say enough. (And that’s not where I would put such an explanation anyway.)

    For instance, there’s stuff scattered around that tells how the template group and template name get into the URL, or the entry name for a single entry; but it kind of exists in a void. Similarly with related entries and reverse related entries. I read the user docs over and over to get them going, tried many things that didn’t work, finally succeeded, but I still don’t have them cemented in my head.

    The docs themselves are okay, but I think they too could use improvement. For example (be gentle if I missed it) I looked all over for where you specify the number of listings per page when you paginate, before finally stumbling over it where the limit parameter is explained, and it says, “If you are using pagination then this will determine the number of entries shown per page.” (By the way, the link to pagination in that sentence doesn’t work.) Well, hell, I already knew about the limit parameter; why would I be looking there for that info?

    Don’t get me wrong; I love EE and am eventually getting it to do everything I want it too. But it just seems like the learning process could have been easier if there were a good roadmap.

    Thanks,
    Nathan

  • #30 / May 04, 2008 10:49pm

    John Morton

    84 posts

    I agree that the documentation is a weak point with EE, but these forums have been invaluable with extremely fast turnaround time with spot-on responses. This thread does point out a place for improvement for EllisLab. I assume the documentation will be getting a big overhaul with the release of 2.0 of the software, so timing for this discussion might be perfect.

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