Thread

First off, let me say this: gosh I love EE! There isn’t a better, more actively supported CMS on the planet. I’m a card-carrying fan.

That said, I have some concerns with unnecessary “barriers” that keep EE users from finding the documentation they need. Specifically, I find that the Wiki and Knowledge Base interfaces need some help. The two blur together, whereas a strong delineation between the two should be maintained.

A case study: I posted a forum write-up on database relationships, and followed it up with a wiki article (on Lisa’s recommendation) and another post. Someone else with the same problem replied to my post and said, “where’s your wiki article?” Good question, I thought, so I set out to find it and provide a link. I couldn’t find it.

I clicked on the “Wiki” link and looked at the categories presented. Nothing looked right, but I clicked around anyway. It wasn’t until later that I realized that I had LEFT THE WIKI and was instead looking at the KB/FAQ. That’s problem #1.

Later, I figured out that the only way to see the actual wiki articles was with the left-hand nav panel—not the links on the wiki home page. Problem #2.

I clicked on the wiki’s left-hand nav, and continued my quest. I checked in the categories, starting with “Database”. Nada. I looked at “all pages” and finally spotted the article. Guess what—the full article view listed it as being in the “Database” category, but it didn’t show earlier in the category view. Problem #3.

A summary:

1) The Wiki home page has links to places other than the wiki! If you want a master “support” page with links hither and yon, fine. But it’s very confusing to have users linking away from the wiki on the wiki home page. I’ve been an EE user for nearly a year now, and had never really seen the wiki. I thought the wiki and KB were the same thing, because the wiki home page links never took me to the wiki. Yes, I may be an idiot—but I bet I’m in good company.

2) Users can completely miss the left-hand links on the wiki home page, hence miss the wiki entirely. The wiki home page should list all the wiki categories, and nothing else.

3) There’s clearly something amiss with the wiki categories, as my “Relationships: Under the Hood” entry is categorized as “Database” but doesn’t show in that category list. How many other wiki entries are similarly orphaned?

I know someone is going to play the “just use search” card in response to my post. That’s fine, but search is no substitute for clear navigation of documentation. People don’t always know the search terms to use, and searching is NOT the first response of most users. Clicking around and getting frustrated is.

Thanks for reading!

Another thing i want to add.. In the documentation page, the comments are listed from NEW to OLD…i think it’s better if they would be from OLD to NEW.

Newest first ensures that the most recent, and hopefully accurate, comments are at the top.  This method has been successfully used for years at php.net, so is the one I chose for display.

Thank you for your feedback.

For 1) This is a remnant of when I ran the wiki as my own pet project; it was an external resource then, and I did not want existing, official documentation replicated in the wiki; so those external links were there for that reason.  I’ll review this and see what can be done about it.  That said, you’re the first person to mention it ... ever, that I know of. =)

2) Honestly I disagree with this, left-hand navigation is common on many, many sites, and very common on wikis, case in point: wikipedia itself. Furthermore, re-creating the category list on the front page would make for a fairly long front-page that is in constant growth and could get unwieldy fairly easily.  However, I’ll consider some solution for this as I examine point 1.

3)  In your wiki article, some silly girl used the wrong syntax for the category placement. She has now fixed her problems, and we’ll not need to speak of that again.  Everyone makes mistakes, eh?  As far as orphans, you can find articles via the “All Pages” link at any time.

Thank you again for your feedback!

There are tremendous visual and text differences between the KB and Wiki, so I’m not sure how a “stronger delineation” could be given.  Just a quick glance:

* orange highlight of your current location in the support menu at the top of the page
* page <title> tags
* header image and text
* breadcrumb navigation
* large orange text in the main content area indicating Knowledge Base / ExpressionEngine Wiki
* lack of method to create new pages, edit, or look at history on the KB
* Search box says “Search Knowledge Base” or “Search Wiki”

Is there something specifically that you think would help you in addition to these style, text, and functional differences?

As always, well put. Perhaps the wiki home page should be minimal:

1) some text to explain what the wiki is and how it differs from the other pieces of the support puzzle,
2) a pointer to use the left-hand nav (which will be much more obvious with the other links removed),
3) some simple instructions on posting to the wiki, and maybe
4) a short list of the latest articles.

Just a few thoughts…

Derek, please see my summary point #1 (the part about “I may be an idiot…” 😉

Seriously, I think I’ve just been heads-down in “the hunt” and was trusting that wiki home page links would take me to wiki content. So I wasn’t really watching where I went, just the information that was appearing (or not appearing) on the screen.

I also think it may be a mistake to assume that everybody knows the difference between a wiki and a knowledge base and an FAQ and all that. Many will, but some will need a bit of hand-holding. This whole thread, for example, has prompted me to really think about the differences for the first time. I’m not a regular wiki user or contributor, so the concept has always been a little hazy for me. Not any more.

A spec of text on the wiki home page bringing clarity to its intent and function would be a huge help, as would the removal (or clear categorization) of non-wiki links. I believe that many people skip the helpful “Support” home page and go straight to a specific resource. I certainly did.

Sorry if I’m making waves with all this—I’m really just trying to make EE even better!

Personally, as geeky as I am, I’ve always found wiki hard to navigate rapidly. But from my perspective, it wasn’t just EE’s wiki, but almost all of them. There’s just something about the structure that lacks intuitiveness when one is in a panic or a hurry. That said, I use Wikipedia frequently, but I navigate it almost entirely via search—theirs and Google. In fact, 80% of the time, even if I already know I want the reference from Wikipedia, I’ll still start my search on Google, then glance to find the wikipedia article. The remainder is typically searches performed from when I’m already at the site.

I think EE’s wiki is better than most of I’ve encounter. Just having the cleaner interface makes it so much better than too many wiki’s.  I like that the search is more prominent now, but admit, I look for it on the left side bar menu, since that’s where it is on Wikipedia.  With it at the top, I always feel like I’m going to search EE, until my eyes really focus in on the subtle grey text inside the search box. Anyway, just my thought that part of the problem might be the basic logic of wikis in general.

This post has me thinking, if I’ve ever seen a wiki that’s broken from the traditional mold. I have to say wikis remind me of things like PHP Nuke—the sites all have a familiar structure about them. I can’t recall if I’ve ever seen anyone really break away from the wiki mold. Though besides EE’s I think Ubuntu has a nice wiki as well.

There are tremendous visual and text differences between the KB and Wiki, so I’m not sure how a “stronger delineation” could be given.

From my perspective, why can’t they be one and the same thing?

What do you mean, Erin?  Are you asking why there are two separate resources?  If so, the KB is managed by EllisLab, and the Wiki is managed by the community.

For 1) This is a remnant of when I ran the wiki as my own pet project; it was an external resource then, and I did not want existing, official documentation replicated in the wiki; so those external links were there for that reason.  I’ll review this and see what can be done about it.  That said, you’re the first person to mention it ... ever, that I know of. =)

I have encountered the same confusions and just haven’t mentioned it.

I do find the wiki very difficult to navigate/search and almost never find what I am looking for without some serious time.

I haven’t mentioned it, as I rarely need to use the wiki. But when I have, I have been frustrated.

I will think about my challenges and see if I can offer some suggestions.

What do you mean, Erin?  Are you asking why there are two separate resources?  If so, the KB is managed by EllisLab, and the Wiki is managed by the community.

The reason I think they should be combined is that the type of questions answered in the KB is similar to the ones in the Wiki, so why not combine them? EllisLab could create locked Wiki articles that are the KB and also allow the community to populate and edit the other entries. That way everything is in one place and searchable from one place.

What do you mean, Erin?  Are you asking why there are two separate resources?  If so, the KB is managed by EllisLab, and the Wiki is managed by the community.

The reason I think they should be combined is that the type of questions answered in the KB is similar to the ones in the Wiki, so why not combine them? EllisLab could create locked Wiki articles that are the KB and also allow the community to populate and edit the other entries. That way everything is in one place and searchable from one place.

Its pretty important to us to keep these resources separate. I hope over time that the wiki improves and there is a clearer separation of content types between the two.

Also, you mentioned “serious time” in the above post. What is “serious time”? An hour? Five minutes? Just curious.

Its pretty important to us to keep these resources separate.

And thus ends the debate!!

Also, you mentioned “serious time” in the above post. What is “serious time”? An hour? Five minutes? Just curious.

I can’t remember how long it took me…long enough to be frustrated for sure, but depending on the day and my mood that can be quite a range of time!

I will try to remember to roughly time it the next time I am looking for something.

The reason we want the KB and wiki separate is that we want to encourage the community to contribute to the wiki. If “official” responses are in the wiki, its my suspicion that the wiki will be treated as a resource employees update instead of something community driven.

A secondary reason is that a KB is more of a sales resource than a wiki is. Wikis aren’t really “new user” friendly, as parts of this thread correctly describe. People looking for answers to pre-sales questions are much more likely to look at a KB than a wiki, especially if they aren’t web developers. I think there is also a greater comfort level from a buyers perspective if someone sees that the information being read is from an official KB versus a wiki.

We do appreciate the feedback and suggestions. Sounds cliches but really, this type of thing helps.

Good feedback.  Nothing gives better feedback than watching over the shoulder of a user navigating your app.

I agree with Allgood2.  Google is very powerful.  Remember to use the site:domain.com search term with Google search.  Few can get general search down better than Google.  I was a tech support rep for Microsoft and our internal KB rocked.  When our internal KB went down we would use Google rather than the public KB because Google kicked the **** out of the search system at the Microsoft support area.

... all except that my search didn’t work the other day because I think Lisa deleted my useful Linux commands page.  GRRR! I had to look those up all over again and put them on my own wiki.  😉

Edit:  Actually, in her defense I don’t know that Lisa was really the culprit.  If so I still have lots of luv, there were only a few of them anyways and they did not have much to do with EE except for doing command line stuff for backups as well as some Mysql stuff.