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EE Support needs more staff?

March 29, 2011 5:31pm

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  • #31 / Mar 31, 2011 11:55am

    Neil Evans

    1403 posts

    Hi Leslie,
    Thanks again for your open response and it is much appreciated. I think i have ranted excessively for a bit and so i am going to try and keep this short… but…!!! 😊

    ExpressionEngine has about a 75% retention rate. That means that the the majority of licenses sold in 2004 are still in use today. Take 7 years of 75% retention combined with the continued significant growth and you have the problem in a nutshell.

    I 100% agree that a lot of the licenses will be in use, and certainly agree you have access to stats i do not.
    But just because the site is active does not necessarily mean these people will be requesting regular support for that full life!

    That aside - i personally (not sure about others) would be far happier receiving support for the active year of license, and support is only available after that again when i update that license. Now i know this might not meet the current license format, but as a concept it is something that seems logical and understandable.
    Other software i use offers 60days free support with each license, or 30 free support credits (usable at 1 credit per request). While this works the overhead of tracking this, plus cash back of time/credit when the bug is the software gets very very messy.

    I guess what i am likening this to is a warranty. I buy a product and get 12 months warranty. But if your like me, how annoyed do you get when the sales clerk tries to get you to buy extended warranty, or premium cover!!!

    But then again accumulative support credits, or time, for every license bought could work well for freelancers, as these support credits could mount up the less they use, and then they are ready to cash them in when needed. And enterprise can buy more as they have more staff that need supporting, etc.

    Dunno, just an idea, and sorry i was trying to keep this short, but it got the better of me!

  • #32 / Mar 31, 2011 2:36pm

    lebisol

    2234 posts

    With an increase emphasis on ‘commercial support’ (justified for some cases) you will loose community based support and as such willingness for a member to help another…hence the loss of community. I mean, what is the intensive since there is no free EE2 version AND we know there is EL staff standing by to earn their paychecks. In return you will need to meet the expectations and hire more staff and guess what?...pay them as well.

    I am also very happy with yearly based as is but would not mind having optional ‘escalated level support’ but just don’t think it will resolve the issues of majority of support tickets. 50 simple questions vs. 1 complex…

    Thin ice for EL, community and reputation is worth more than $ and takes longer to earn.

  • #33 / Mar 31, 2011 2:46pm

    Leslie Camacho

    1340 posts

    Thin ice for EL, community and reputation is worth more than $ and takes longer to earn.

    100% agree, which is why the change is needed. Without change, we lose all three. But I promise the philosophy behind the change is founded on your stated premise. We need community and we need a reputation continues to be well earned & deserved. We do that, the money follows if the business model is healthy.

  • #34 / Mar 31, 2011 3:22pm

    Rick Jolly

    729 posts

    Support was never free. It is built into the price of a license. I never liked the “free” support model, because I rarely need support and don’t like subsidizing those who do. Let me be clear though: if “free” support is abandoned, license prices must decrease. Otherwise, the move will be seen as a money grab. I think the community is increasingly sensitive of EL’s corporate and unfriendly tendencies. I think that is reflected in the decreasing quality of the community.

  • #35 / Mar 31, 2011 3:27pm

    Leslie Camacho

    1340 posts

    Support was never free. It is built into the price of a license. I never liked the “free” support model, because I rarely need support and don’t like subsidizing those who do. Let me be clear though: if “free” support is abandoned, license prices must decrease. Otherwise, the move will be seen as a money grab. I think the community is increasingly sensitive of EL’s corporate and unfriendly tendencies. I think that is reflected in the decreasing quality of the community.

    Free support isn’t being abandoned. But free, unlimited support, forever isn’t sustainable. I think there is a lot of room to work with between those two where we can provide better support then we do now for free (or built into the license cost as you fairly state).

    What corporate & unfriendly tendencies are you referring to? Since I’m probably responsible for them in some way, it would be helpful to know, because that’s certainly not my intention for EllisLab to be that way. Feel free to .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) directly if you prefer. Thanks.

  • #36 / Mar 31, 2011 4:34pm

    Rob Allen

    3114 posts

    A few things runnin’ around my head…

    Over the past few years I’ve noticed a tendancy for other commercial software companies to abandon the old “free support for life” in favour of a limited free support period that comes with the purchase of a licence, after that things like annual subscriptions seem to be popular, sometimes offering various support levels, eg 1 day, 2 say 3 day sreponse times. I think this is really down to numbers. Ten years ago there weren’t that many people developing sites compared to with today, so back then it was fairly sustainable. Now the amount of users is huge numbers and with that requests for support have increased proportionally - fact of life! You can’t run a business on fresh air 😊

    Different types of support
    Looking through the tech support forums (and not just here!) I see all sorts of requests and they fall into two distict types:

    1. Genuine “technical” issues, eg
    - install problems
    - security issues
    - server related
    - bugs and stuff not working as it should

    2. Learning issues, eg
    - questions of setting up/configuration
    - anything that’s answered by dynamic=“no” 😊
    - tag not outputting anything
    - how can I get EE do this…?

    This next bit could apply to anyone that supplies tech support…

    Inevitably all these requests have to be answered by Tech support specialists and their time is at a premium. Of course Tech support people should be primarily focussing on the real technical issues but often they end up spending a lot of time on the “Learning issues” and that takes time away from the more serious issues. So when things are busy it’s inevitable that some urgent issues will take longer to answer, and that is a real problem for the customer.

    I have seen this problem in a business where I used to work, and the damage took a long time to repair.

    The solution

    Two levels of support person:
    a) Tech specialists for the real technical stuff
    b) “Mentors” for all those “I’m learning EE” questions

    What would happen is that support requests are filtered at source and distributed to the right team. The result is usually far better use of time and resources, and therefore quicker turnaround/resolution (and happier customers!).

    Self help
    I know we have the Wiki but it is really aimed at the more advanced user and not people who are just starting learning EE. The Docs are great but can’t possibly list every little thing that might arise. Something that might reduce the amount of tech support request is a comprehensive and well organised self help area with common issues/problems that we see time and time again in the forums (dynamic=“no”...lol). Even if this reduces support requests by 10% it might be money well spend when you convert that time to tech support costs?

    I’ll shut up now 😉

  • #37 / Mar 31, 2011 5:14pm

    narration

    773 posts

    Free support isn’t being abandoned. etc.

    Leslie, my feeling is that you’re now in the part of the conversation that is most important:

    - the feelings people have about Ellis after the shifts, those of the past year especially

    - the unrecognized monetary as well as advancement value of ‘Support’, that it is a resource in considerable proportion to the amount it may appear a ‘cost center’ to the EE enterprise

    - that you are likely not to be able to make support work at the level needed for a complex product like EE by abandoning community in favor of a shopkeeper accounting. Even, I would think, for the ‘enterprise’ customer.

    - that comments about ‘forums outdated’ are mainly diversionary, besides unsound.

    As you may know, I’ve involved myself, particularly on tough problems of either the technical or ‘unplugged refrigerator’ sort, on the forums in the last year. I’ve done it for a number of reasons, not all to be exposed, but particularly to understand better how this community works. Because it is unusual, you know.

    I think people like Nevsie have been very articulate in this thread how the ‘inner support’ actually works. Quite capable people come around because they would like a little conversation with peers where they’re stuck. Then they stick and answer a handful of others who learn from them. It’s a story so simple and effective (and powerful) that its place to exist is very easily overlooked and lost.

    That’s what happens when labels are changed, when the experienced are disinvited, etc.. Pretty soon things look very organised, by labels which, as pointed out, newer persons in trouble especially can’t figure out, and the full burden of support then actually falls on Ellis itself.

    This is of course only half the story, and I think you know the other half, and why my fingers insist on over-typing before really getting into it. Ellis is trying very hard to remedy the effects of the last year, and I support that—let’s let this say enough.

    It’s possible to get at the Support side of the issue, though, just by looking at what those ‘unplugged refrigerator’ or ‘mean-minded title’ support stories are really most often about. People have to have confidence to work at the surface of a complex system, as EE encourages them to do. When they don’t get a clear-spoken and active conversation, they flounder, and it takes a lot of work to get them back on track.

    You get that quick, accurate conversation by having people like Nevsie, Cheif, _rsan, bluedreamer, to name a very few who first come to mind, present.

    And by the way, this is the moment to suggest reversing another canard. So many of the problem conversations are _not_ from 2004-licensed personal bloggers. They are from newish licensees who are building something for a client, and not for USD 50K either, at the moment they get lost. This is before and after considering upgrades paid for, that the market is split now so that considerable innovation is in add-ons that are required, etc.. I have seen what Rick once wrote openly to Pixel&Tonic; about getting people ‘to pay’, and think it misses a mark.

    Well, I am skipping again - because I don’t want to write about the way shop-keeping economics probably don’t work; and as clearly as the same thing is a problem for the big boys also, as much as they focus any attention on home markets.

    We are then back to why the community around ExpressionEngine feels unusual, and as core.

    It’s the community which can deal with the complexity, and the personal. It’s the community which brings persons to learn. It’s the community which builds futures and, so often, their contributors, whether they become website builder/communications businesses; or become composer and/or supplier of new EE abilities. Who indeed are the Masugas?

    I want to say at this moment that I am anything but a jockeying positioner of the ‘New Social’. It is actual culture I am talking about; real relationships that persons can participate in. If I have to admit to being old enough that finally it does penetrate that so much of the action in newer venues is actually in search of this.

    What is there to suggest, to close what I feel is a necessarily pretty imperfect contribution here? Actually, again I think the seeds are present in what others talk about.

    1. Bring approachability back to the forums. Yes, in titling, ordering, etc.. Tell people with problems right where they can go, official and community. Observe how they choose, in fact, which might be interesting. But don’t actually split those reservations. Have EE people go into community; invite community mentors to contribute in official. Find out ways and means to have people move appropriately wherever their question began.

    2. Have more than just ‘Support’ persons in support. Support is an absolute treasure chest for anyone doing design, as design is most deeply to be understood. Having development people each spend a few hours a week, perhaps via posted lists of ‘help here’, ‘please comment here’ to focus it, would really close a lot of issues fast.

    3. What issues? Places where support persons run out of answers; and also places where solutions are really needed, but are being officially ignored (I will promote as an example, not killing JavaScript/JSON when business developers set debug to 0 for the ever-present reason, to avoid embarrassment on an imperfect deliver where customers need to use CP posting/editing).

    [Ah, notice I am getting clipped by the forum for being longwinded here. Finish in a short second posting, then.]

  • #38 / Mar 31, 2011 5:19pm

    Leslie Camacho

    1340 posts

    Just wanted to say thank you to everyone who has contributed thus far. Feel free to keep the feedback coming, we’re watching it closely. And as always, you can .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) if you prefer.

  • #39 / Mar 31, 2011 5:24pm

    narration

    773 posts

    continued:

    4. Here is a suitably tricky but easy one. Reverse trend of separation, and both invite and encourage, by recognition, all those who pitch in and help. Here’s how it is tricky: customers between their silences and lines pay a lot of mind to whether they are seeming to get ‘official or approved’ attention—particularly when they’re in deep need. Having some titles that are specifically awarded and shown below any rather down-the-nose automatics by length of service (‘grad student??’ - could be fixed also…), would be very useful. People who deserve it get to be spokespersons, given recognition as such.

    I think that taking the mark as how well the titles will contribute for the customers helped is a good way to figure out what such titles should be, and who should get a chance to wear them. It could be quite helpful wherever someone is working their way towards having a business, towards gaining a position, etc., and all else you can understand about this goes, as well, for the different individuals.

    5. Well, I am actually running out of steam for the moment, and getting interrupted also. Maybe these are enough points to let your own stories well up for the direction of suggestion, and that’s what I would really like to see.

    6. I know I am walking around a very large story, in what a productive community really can be; and this is a contemporary story we are all newly working out, as a necessity.

    I have long seen Ellis/ExpressionEngine as a pretty remarkable presence as well as opportunity in this regard, and I do study it - part of my more real profession.

    I hope you can take that interest as a recognition of value; and find your own feelings for the ways roads of solution can open up, in this case all the way back from ‘support’ to the ability to progress in design and capability—those advances which stand out from within, and are duly important there always; as well as then giving the welcome surprise of fresh venues for add-ons.

    I believe that particular roadway is very real; have walked it many times over an interesting and successful earlier career. I wish all here best fortune.

    Regards,
    Clive
    [edited a bit as this was getting rushed]

  • #40 / Mar 31, 2011 5:37pm

    Leslie Camacho

    1340 posts

    I wish all here best fortune.

    Regards,
    Clive
    [edited a bit as this was getting rushed]

    Thanks Clive. The well wishes & suggestions are much appreciated.

  • #41 / Mar 31, 2011 6:41pm

    narration

    773 posts

    Thank you also, Leslie.

    Clive

  • #42 / Mar 31, 2011 8:08pm

    strudel

    195 posts

    Greetings you all,

    Speaking as a fairly new EE user (and not a particularly gifted one!), I thought I’d throw in a couple of short comments.

    (1) I’m not on the cutting edge at all, so I don’t know if forums are outdated, but I’d have to say that I find them extremely valuable and workable. I’m usually able to find the answers for many of my questions in previous posts. When I don’t find a question already answered, I post and have been fortunate to have been helped by many co-users (thanks! and I hope to get to the point where I can return the favor!). At times, I’ve been a bit frustrated with tech support response times though.

    (2) I used to frequently visit the “How-to” forum for answers, but since it was changed to “Codeshare” I didn’t think that was the appropriate place for my questions (which were much more of a “how do I…” nature).

    Another thanks to all those who have helped me out in my slow, uphill climb of learning to develop EE sites! I come to this from a design background, so there’s been a lot to learn.

  • #43 / Mar 31, 2011 8:54pm

    Neil Evans

    1403 posts

    @strudel
    i think it is nice to meet people that also search the forums - there are a lot of people who don’t!!!
    But the important point is that a blind ticket support system isolated to each individual will mean we lose this resource of answers and agree this would be a problem (for me personally), and potentially increase support requests further, and separate community further - i like knowing other peoples tags, names and viewing their sites. As a result i would not be so envious of the remarkable teen Rumbelow!!!

  • #44 / Mar 31, 2011 9:22pm

    Rob Allen

    3114 posts

    i think it is nice to meet people that also search the forums - there are a lot of people who don’t!!!

    When I was learning the ropes searching the forums answered just about every question I had, but like you say a lot of folks don’t - and that’s probably why the same questions keep popping up.

    But the important point is that a blind ticket support system isolated to each individual will mean we lose this resource of answers and agree this would be a problem (for me personally), and potentially increase support requests further, and separate community further - i like knowing other peoples tags, names and viewing their sites.

    All the more reason to have a well organised repository of solutions to the various problems people encounter.

    As a result i would not be so envious of the remarkable teen Rumbelow!!!

    Dag, if it wasn’t for the meddling kids 😊

  • #45 / Mar 31, 2011 9:39pm

    narration

    773 posts

    Greetings you all…I come to this from a design background, so there’s been a lot to learn.

    strudel, felt that all of what you have to say was very clearly stated—should help.

    Also, I am having imaginations about what a Design area of the forum might be like. Watch out 😉  And seriously, it might be very nice to be able to question ‘what would you do’ there, since we have so much freedom of design with EE.

    Regards,
    Clive

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