Thread

Three years ago we went with Expression Engine, following our research for such a system. From that time, we have learned how to used it. We are no programmers, just buddies who plays with html since 1996 and love it ! EE version 1 meet all our requirements : relatively simple, good help from their team and it was doing quite well that it was supposed to do.

Then came version 2 : “better, much more…”, whatever the superlative… “You will want to upgrade”… We did and, since then, it has been nothing but a nightmare !

First, it is more, much more expensive : at first, it cost more than version 1, and, since this version is stripped compared to version 1, to do the same things you where used to do, you now have to empty your wallet : buy this add-on to replace something that is no more there in EE, buy something that used to be free or cheap and worked… Then, don’t forget the time you will spend to try to make EE 2 work…

Compared to EE 1, EE 2 still looks like a beta : bugs, problems and everyday comes a new bug, problem… While it was quite easy and working with version 1, in this new version, usually it doesn’t work from the start.

While, the EE team did a great job of helping you in the time of version 1, now they usually make you try tons of stuff untill you find out a “hack”. Then, when you say that with this hack, you have, somehow, find some kind of solution, the thread becomes solved : “glad you find a solution”… Nobody at EE talks about bugs… You found a hack, good !

Is this normal ? A hack to make something that you bought, work ? And, even if they don’t talk about EE 2 bugs, shouldn’t it be solved in an update ? It doesn’t !

My experience

First, no more path.php… While I got used to it, untill… our seconds domain names under our main site do not work anymore. We have no other choice than to buy more licences from MSM, even if the site is so light…

Just bought a new license. Oupss, it doesn’t work.  Search EE forums, “you should use this hack…”. Wow, a hack again… Even still, spend 3 hours following how to do it. Our new license still doesn’t work ! Strange so… There seems to be a bug in a language file… Why then, this “quite simple file” has not been updated yet ? Anyway, we still can’t use the licence we bought today…

Then, our calendar… Somehow, there is a 5 hours problem somewhere (related or not to the fact that our local time is eastern time (5…)…) Usually, we start the event at 01:00 (even in EE 1 this was strange…) and things used to work. Now, everything before 06:00 gets offdated from a day : a 24th December event is on at December 23, but not on the 24th… Plus the old pagination code is no more working… Why ?

Then, many of the new add-ons, don’t know why, don’t work : tried “MX Jumper” to replace “reeposition” : doesn’t work at all. Bought “Channels Images”, can’t make it load images…

We do use in EE 1, text custom field to upload images… In EE 2, for whatever reason we have to use “text area” otherwise, it doubles your “Image Post Formatting”…

The new “file manager” is another nightmare. You got just a couple of files at the time ; so you browse a lot before getting what you want. Then, when you insert the file, bye, bye the file browser… more clicks to get somewhere, and this, with thumbnails and no list file by names… So, to do the same thing in EE 2, it takes 3 times the same time as it used to in EE 1 ! And, don’t remember exactly what was happening, but I do remember that, for a while, the new “file manager” was unable to upload images files… No problem with “.doc or .pdf” files, but no .jpg, .gif or .png… Finally, found a solution, but after so many hours of looking for it…

Our forums, by default, now needs work… They where OK before, now, something’s wrong again ; more work to do…

Our Albums photo… Dead ! No more Gallery module. Wow, have to buy something to replace this module. Surprise, nothing replace this module like it was. Many add-ons… nothing free… Not one that can replace the Gallery module : every add-on has part of it, but not all… Great ! 2, 3 or more add-ons to do what one was able to…

Note that everyday we found new bugs and problems… Would love to go forward and make our sites evoluates… but how can we, loosing so much time trying to make EE 2 works ?

Anyway, I’m very, very disappointed with EE 2. For the moment, I hate it ! For me it has just been a nightmare for the last months… And everyday, the hell goes on… I’m beginning to think that we might go back to EE 1.

Don’t tell me “why have you gone with an updated version” ? Or, “the problem is on your side (your computer… whatever…)” !

A new version should be better, doesn’t it ! I have no problem with version 1, on the same computer, why should there be a problem now ?

Finally, since the “evolution” from version 1 to 2 is so “lamentable” what is our future with Expression Engine ? Can we still use it in the next years or should we find something else, with a better future, but loose so much time and money ? By the way, for us, non-profitable enterprises, money is, too bad… important. We don’t have any !

It is a sad question after so many years spend to learn and like it !

OK… Mac OS X 10.6.5, all apps up to date. Last build of every parts of EE 2, same for add-ons…

As professional webdevelopers we are still staying with EE1. I’ve tried to get EE2 work 3 times (last time 10 months ago) but everytime I’ve found annoying bugs and problems. It’s embarrassing that the status quo seems to be unchanged. We don’t have the time to trial and error and EE1 is a rock solid piece of software (with some minor issues).

I agree w/some of this, mainly the poor support and overall bugginess . It seems like the only time “support” supports you is when you’ve found a solution yourself and they they’re like, “Please feel free to ask a question any time!” Yeah, support generally sucks, though they’ve helped a few times…

And EE2 is very buggy (seems Beta). The upload system most of all. Will there be an update soon?

Hi y’all,

I’d like to take some time in a bit to address in more detail, but as I’m heading to an EE meetup where we’ll be discussing some of these issues in person in Vancouver today (if you happen to be close, please feel free to join) I want to start with saying that we are actively solving these issues right now and there will be a new release coming out this month, very soon, before the holidays.

You can follow along at our forecast page as well for features being fixed and worked on here: http://expressionengine.com/blog/forecast

Our meetup: http://www.meetup.com/ticketing/ticket_printable/?event_id=15273951

I apologize for not getting more feedback initially as I’m traveling today. I look forward to talking more tomorrow.

Yikes! I knew there were issues, but didn’t know they were this severe, and still at this stage. I’ve stood back and avoided upgrading any sites so far, as I’m not much of an Early Adopter. Sorry to hear so many folks are suffering from so many harsh bugs though.

I think that people who are dissatisfied are the loudest and give the impression that everyone hates EE2. I am a long time EE developer and I LOVE EE2, and cringe when I have to go back and work on EE1. I have no problems, whatsoever, with EE2. And regarding bugs…it’s not like EE1 didn’t have any bugs.

I’m one of the earliest adopters of EE from pMachine, circa late 2003. I love EE, Rick, Leslie, and all the folks associated with EE. EE from 1.x to 1.7. was pretty much solid, dependable, secure, flexible, and performed well. Yeah, it was showing it’s age, but in a Demi Moore kinda way.

Then, a few years ago, along came EE 2. My, oh my. The promise of running EE on top of Code Igniter seemed to be a good marriage. Add some Sofía Vergara eye candy in the CP, toss in Snippets and a few other overdue features and the attraction was instant. Boy, this date is gonna be great.

Dream, meet reality.

The reality is this. EE 2.x, after more than a year on the market, and multiple updates, remains a very buggy app. These are not just little nits. Some are serious. I don’t even have to look to find show stoppers. What this past year of problem-laced instability does is create doubt in the community. Doubt brings about a search for options and alternatives. In the past few months I’ve converted the same number of sites from EE 1.7 to EE 2.x as I have converted from EE to WordPress. Clients have needs. Developers have needs. EE 2.x, in my not-all-that experienced or skillful opinion, doesn’t do a good job of filling those needs.

Yet.

I have not given up. Yet.

However, I have become doubtful and seriously cautious about using EE and upgrading client sites to EE 2.

Here is what I see that EE 2.x needs right away to remain viable in my fast growing ‘content developer’ circle:

1 - Fix the bugs. I don’t know what went wrong with the start-over for Code Igniter, but EE 2.x needs to become as solid as 1.7. Fast.

2 - A dynamic category menu system. WP has it right. Do it that way.

3 - Custom URL strings (no more index.php). WP has it right. Do it that way.

4 - Optional one-click updates. WP has it right. Do it that way.

5 - A static, multi-column base layout and design framework. Content developers (as opposed to developers) can build themes on top of that.

That’s the short list. The longer list becomes a wish list that never ends. If EE can’t do #1 through #5 this year, in order, the longer list won’t matter.

</2-cents>

would love to hear ELs response to this. I’ve been holding off upgrading, but I keep hearing all the complaints. regrettably, alternatives are starting to look better…

Graaaamps

Good list and as you point out, if WP can do all of these things and do it right, then why not EE?

But you left one item off the list

- Get serious about support.

One of the reasons I decided to go with EE is that there was support and not just hoping that a fellow user could offer a solution on the forums.

Truth is that posts to tech support often languish for days and days. Then finally someone from “support” chimes in to ask what version you’re using and you don’t hear from them again for a day or two.

If it’s a minor glitch it’s not such a big deal but I’ve seen too many frantic pleas for support go unansered when someone’s site is completely shut down by a bug. This is a commercial product - support should be a lot better than it is.

EE 2.0 was how many years in dev? And it’s still beta ware.

I’m afraid to install updates cause who knows what nightmares will be unleashed.

But you left one item off the list

- Get serious about support.

I hear you. I suspect that what has happened in the last year is a dramatic increase in support requests for EE 2 problems without the corresponding quick solution (more evident in EE 1.x in previous years).

Truth is that posts to tech support often languish for days and days. Then finally someone from “support” chimes in to ask what version you’re using and you don’t hear from them again for a day or two.

I’ve had that a few times, but not always. For the times when there’s notable latency I’ll post an issue. A day or so later I’ll get a support response with a question. I respond. A day or so later there’s another question. Rinse. Repeat.

I understand the problem. Lots of problems beget lots of questions. I’ve also noticed a difference in the quality of posters on EE’s forums. There are many more ‘content developers’ now vs. a few years ago when it was more ‘code developers.’ Newbies to CMS vs. experienced developers. WordPress framework folks have a similar issue. That means lots more questions from paying customers vs. the experienced code developers who tend to figure things out. I put myself somewhere in between the two.

If it’s a minor glitch it’s not such a big deal but I’ve seen too many frantic pleas for support go unansered when someone’s site is completely shut down by a bug. This is a commercial product - support should be a lot better than it is.

Or, perhaps has been recently.

EE 2.0 was how many years in dev? And it’s still beta ware.

And we’re essentially beta testers who paid for the privilege?

I’m afraid to install updates cause who knows what nightmares will be unleashed.

There was a time when upgrading to a new version or build of EE was a snap. Prepare the /system folder, zip, upload, unzip, change folder names, update.php, done. Five minutes from start to finish, including a bathroom break. That worked for years with very few hiccups.

Not any more. I have a full copy of sites running on MAMP to test before going live. The update time used to be a few minutes. Now it’s an hour or more due to testing and lengthened check list.

Something happened to EE a few years ago with the development of EE 2 and it hasn’t been pretty since. I wait. I hope. I want the best for EE and the staff and loyal customers and the add-on community. But I have a business to run. Viable, improving alternatives exist.

I don’t know. I’m speculating. Maybe too many resources went into components of EE that don’t pay for themselves. Forums. Simple Commerce. Wiki. MSM, and others. All of those consume resources for development, and consume support resources. EE’s reputation, built in the 1.x version years probably attracted plenty of new ‘content developer’ customers who are less technically experienced, and, therefore, require more support. Toss in the development of CodeIgniter and a rewrite of EE to 2.0 and the whole mix becomes untenable.

What a shame. It’s sad. I love working with EE’s templates, tags, snippets, channels. What else is like it? You don’t need to know how to spell PHP to pull off a great site. But new era basics are still missing. Dynamic menu system, one-click upgrades, custom URL strings, a static and basic layout framework (great for themes), static page output, and more.

Sigh.

I agree with the complaints about support.  That was the one thing that EE had going for it.  Now it seems that the support group is wasting time, just replying with something to make sure that no threads remain in the ignored queue.  I read thread after thread where the person provided superlative detail and someone from support asks “What version are you running,” when it was right there, plain as day.  I’ve had stupid (and insulting) questions asked of me, or assumptions made about what I must be doing to break EE, when the original post made it quite clear what help/question needs to be answered. 

I get the sense that the support folks are saying something, every 48 hours or so, just to make sure that their stat reports show that they are responding to everything within that time frame.  It doesn’t matter that 8 days go by, with some silly question posted every 2 days, before any kind of meaningful reply is posted, if at all.

I’ve always tried to use the forums to search for information before posting.  Posting is a last resort.  If I’m posting, it means that I’m truly desperate.  Waiting a week for a response, or never getting one, is really awful. By that time I’ve given up.

I understand that the “feel free to post again” thing was probably a nice idea at the start, but it is getting really old and tired.  Sure, post again, and maybe you’ll be ignored for a week, or in 3 days someone will ask what version you’re running, but then they’ll never respond to your post again (or by the time they do, you’ve given up and found a workaround).

It was a bad sign when the training division became a profit center. If customers need substantive training on a product like this, it means your user reference materials are insufficient.  The forums were the replacement for that—for YEARS. There was a helpful staff and a supportive community of folks who helped each other, but now things have become so complex, so buggy, and so overwhelmed, that is no more. The support team is not supportive.  They’ve become old-model, corporate bureaucrats.  The good guys seem to be gone and you can’t help but wonder if something happened in the business culture that made them want to disappear without a trace.

I loved EE. I’ve loved EE since pMachine. I loved Rick. It was a product that anyone could use, and what features you used depended on what you needed and how technically proficient you were, but you didn’t have to be a programmer to use it.  No more.  I’m looking for an alternative and I’m embarrassed that I’ve recommended this product to friends.  I feel obligated to help them try to maintain these sinking ships.  EE now requires a part time programmer to maintain—not something that a small business owner can afford on a start-up budget, or bloggers who do their blogging for free can do with EE. It’s become nothing but a money pit and a nightmare. If you’re not a programmer, it is a completely unusable product.

I’ve been paying out of my own pocket for extensions and add-ons (for my friends) just because I can’t bear to tell them how bad EE has become—how what was once included and worked out of the box, no longer works, or requires add-ons, extensions, or extra $$$. I supported them for free, except now it is costing me money.

EE has decided to respond to the needs of the programmer community and are chasing the big $$$ “channel” clients—that’s fine, nothing wrong with Capitalism, and they’re listening to those folks and not their existing user base—the user base that used to be their client base. I just wish they’d told us.

Upgrading to EE 2 was the dumbest thing I ever did.  I thought I needed to (as if the 1.x series would go away or become unstable or something), but it was a mistake, and it is too late for me to roll back — but if others are thinking about upgrading, DO NOT DO IT!

My advice to my friends whose sites I’ve maintained (for free FOR YEARS) will be to move them all off EE.  I just don’t know to what yet. 

I hate severing relationships. I have nearly 10 years invested in EE and I hate throwing that away. I really do. But these last few months have been like a bad marriage, turned violent. You know you have to end it. You just don’t want to have to go through the ugly divorce.

Unless the EE folks return from their next expo, conference or retreat with the revelation that they need to get serious and restore their once unique and marvelous helpful culture, and put out a decent, stable release, I don’t see any other choice but divorce.

From a business perspective, these are interesting dilemmas. My dad used to say the two biggest problems in business were not enough biz and too much biz. I suspect EE is suffering from the later.

Of course, that differs from the programming and the core decisions! I’ve been around since the start also, and no doubt things have changed there. I considered Paul (B) the ultimate guru - any question asked would be answered immediately in detail including, if needed, a patch or mod to achieve what the poster was asking. Now THAT is support! It’s impossible to maintain that level of smarts (familiarity with every line of code) over a large staff…

This may be “score one for open source”, as a lot of tech people seem more willing to share when less profit is being made. Personally, I’m a capitalist myself, so approve of the route taken by EL, but at the same time I have to wonder…...if someone starting with development of a forum or similar stuff today might be better off going open source and then charging big time for consulting, mods, etc…...

Ah, to each his own.

Programming is a art and science…..and while the new and existing crews might be highly talented, it is always possible that they don’t exactly sing the tune to the degree that rick, paul and earlier folks did…by that, I mean that once John Lennon died, the Beatles could have hired the best talent in the world, but not gotten the same exact level and type of song. Also, in many ways building something from scratch is easier than building someone based on legacy which you want to be somewhat compatible with the older stuff….that’s quite a task.

As you all and others have noted, it just may be that there is plenty of market for EE among designers and those building both basic and specialty sites which closer fit the product as-is. In the end the market rules. It’s hard to complain from this end, having gotten massive value out of their product for 8+ years. At the same time, I am in the same boat as many of you…...although unlike you I don’t council large amounts of clients, but rather publish myself.

Are these just the minority or the majority of people using EE 2.0 has similar complaints?

And I think the user base has grown lot more than what it was a few years back. But the support team hasn’t grown proportionally I guess.

Are these just the minority or the majority of people using EE 2.0 has similar complaints?

And I think the user base has grown lot more than what it was a few years back. But the support team hasn’t grown proportionally I guess.

My guess is that it probably consists more of people who converted and who expected the same level of continuing support that they had way back when.

A new user would not run into many problems….if they did their homework and found that it was the right CMS, they would be starting from scratch and not have the same expectations.

Almost no business can maintain the same level of service as when they are small…..but some (Apple for instance) do a dang good job with the stores and genius bars!

As I’m sure the EL people would agree, no business can meet the needs and everyone…and if and when it is time for some folks to move on (a business decision), so be it. One of the first rules I was taught in consulting was that each year you lose 10-15% of your clients. Not exactly the same in this endeavor, but also holds true. The key is picking up more on the new end than you lose on the old one!

Waiting a week for a response, or never getting one, is really awful. By that time I’ve given up.

You can’t really claim this without posting stats.  I remember this same subject came up around four years ago and posting stats is exactly what Ellislab did.  They ran a script to get response times which basically proved the claims to be false.  I would bet if they were to do the same today, the results would be the same.

It was a bad sign when the training division became a profit center.

There will always be demand for classroom type training from people just as there will always be demand of bones from dogs.

I’ve been paying out of my own pocket for extensions and add-ons (for my friends) just because I can’t bear to tell them how bad EE has become—how what was once included and worked out of the box, no longer works, or requires add-ons, extensions, or extra $$$. I supported them for free, except now it is costing me money.

Let’s make a list of the top 10 add-ons that developers feel they can’t live without.  EE has never had those capabilities.  Here is a fun exercise, grab an early copy of ExpressionEngine and let’s relive all the crazy methods we once used to get a fraction of the functionality.

ExpressionEngine development has been my bread and butter for nearly four years (and I have been a user since Pmachine.)  ExpressionEngine has expanded dramatically in capability since then.  ExpressionEngine can’t have it all, the developers need to create a solid platform which serves as a canvas for the third party developers to paint.  Creating an EE site loaded with add-ons costs more money, but we didn’t even have all this functionality back in the day.  Paying for the add-ons still saves time and money for building this functionality ourselves.

From a developer perspective, EE2 has a much better API.  CodeIgniter has been as successful in the world of PHP based web frameworks as EE has been in the world of content management systems.  Building EE on top of CI has been rocky (took too long, too many bugs at first) but developing EE add-ons with the CI API has been a great experience.

Overall, I took my time making the move.  I waited for my most often used tools to get ported over and for EE2 bugs to be worked out.  Today, I’m quite happy with the move though I’m not sure that I won’t be building another 1.x site in the near future.  We aren’t out of the 1.x woods yet I think, but we are getting closer every day.