Thread

Can i bump this slightly - again… But could i also suggest addressing support? It is all too often i come across threads like this: (i have regularly experienced this problems since 2.1 and forum re-jig).
http://ellislab.com/forums/viewthread/170112/

Where the user is stuck and struggling to get support for any period of time. The EE i started using allowed me to post a message and usually within an hour or so get a response from a member of the team or at least a keen community member. This seems to have all but disappeared - regular community faces are certainly no longer posting.
You have to consider that most EE users are professional businesses that have to buy your product and then deliver it to the client in a set deadline. Losing a day here and there for support on problems will throw off complete schedules. Most people are in the middle of working on an EE site and would not be able to continue building while they wait for responses. This will in my eyes make EE a defunct product for web design agency use as it cannot be relied upon for prompt service.

I just hope that with time (a short amount of time ideally!!!) EE recovers from this bad 2.1 Hangover!!!

Hi, nevsie. Believe me, we’d like nothing more than to be able to respond to more threads and faster. The FIFO method works for the most part, but there are times when people try to bump a thread and it results in them going to the bottom of the list instead of the top.

There are a few things people can do before asking a question in the support forums. (This isn’t meant for you specifically, but just for the general person reading this thread.)

1. Post which build/version of EE they’re using. Version and build are found in the bottom of any control panel page.

2. Update to the newest build and try to see if you can still replicate the problem.

3. Try to test without extensions being a factor.

4. Know ahead of time how much memory is allocated to PHP. (When memory may play a part of the problem)

5. If the template is an issue, try with a reduced template, and gradually add complexity.

6. Don’t post how to questions in the official support forums.

7. If you’re having issues with .htaccess, post in the CodeShare forum. We don’t provide direct support for removing index.php via .htaccess.

8. Test your code in more than one browser.

9. When describing a problem, try to be specific. Don’t just say it’s slow. *What’s* slow? The front end, the back end, that sort of thing.

10. If you are using third party add-ons, look for support from them. Sometimes we may know an answer, but the responsibility for support lies with them.

We do appreciate your feedback.

Certainly not arguing with the sentiments above and from a support perspective i agree completely.
My post was not a specific attack on support but more a “is this really working” kind of comment.

Previously when there was more community involvement it did work. But perhaps with a new v2 system that has more bugs to be ironed out, more of a learning curve, more uptake in the market, and more complex features perhaps this support model is not working - just an opinion.

It is easy for me to pass judgement like I have above, and the solution is certainly not obvious or easy. But perhaps a ticket type system (as much as I hate them), or even to work through the forum on a Entry ID basis rather than the last time it was commented on would be more sensible.

Logically unanswered questions need support and customer should not be penalised for adding more information, or asking add-on questions. To me it seems that if i go to the extra effort of updating the post with new information i have bothered to search out - then why should i be pushed behind some one who has posted a question and potentially lazily waited for support to do everything for them.

Summary - is this really working??? For me, currently no.

It’s also a bandwidth issue. We need to add more shifts and or TSS personnel. Growth can sometimes be painful. But we do appreciate community efforts to help out. I’m sure Lisa will add to this post when she logs in. It’s still a bit early for her on the west coast. 😊

I did think of a few more things.. look through the buglist before posting a potential bug. Have a link the TSS can see to demonstrate the problem. Create a SuperAdmin account for us ahead of time.

When you see MSG on our Avatar instead of PM,  please use that instead of a PM. Don’t directly send an email to one of the support staff unless asked. We work in shifts, and if you send me an email, the next TSS may not have the information you sent. But if we ask for the info, then we have a system to keep track of those emails.

Thank you Derek for publicly acknowledging Ellislab’s growing pains. Good to hear that you have a new plan in place. Some high level problems that I’ve noticed:

1. Respect for the community - Increasingly, we are ignored. I know you are aware, but this isn’t a new problem. For example, spam on the CI forums has been epidemic for a while and the vast majority comes from new posters able to post links. Another example, I had a post deleted and so did sophistry, a well respected CI user, for different reasons. Both deletions were unwarranted.

2. Staff - More high quality people that are good at a particular task, and focussed on only that task. Perhaps starting with a very experienced HR manager. Pascal’s time shouldn’t be spent manually deleting spam posts on the CI forum. Also, having an ethically challenged CI Community Chieftain reflects poorly on your company.

3. Change ExpressionEngine. Not patch, change - I’m being harsh, but I think EE 2 was a wasted opportunity. As if EE 1 was just tacked onto CI. I expect that the delays and problems with EE 2 are due to its architecture. Maybe it’s good enough for now, but future growth will require a complete rethink and rewrite. The code must be smaller and more modular. Most importantly, the approach to templating must completely change. Don’t get me wrong, I love the template-centric approach of EE, but I don’t like the independent parsing of ee tags and all the complexities involved. Like having to mix in php and having to execute it before or after EE tag parsing. Like “simple” conditionals treated differently than “advanced” conditionals. Like several layers of embeds to get complex functionality working. EE templates must “compile” to php, similar to php template engines like Smarty resulting in simplified logical templates, and improved performance.

Thanks for the comments, Rick; I’ve followed up privately via email.

Thanks for the comments, Rick; I’ve followed up privately via email.

Are there any parts of that you can post publicly? While I’m not a hugely active member of the CI community I am starting to use it, and those thoughts Rick has shared affect us all.

I’d also like to reiterate a few things other people have mentioned. Currently my major concerns are:

1) UI/UX Quality
I feel more attention needs to be paid here, things are just feeling unpolished and not particularly well though out. The most obvious example is the CP; it feels to me that it was built by developers who don’t appreciate design and crafting the details. Now I know that’s probably not the case but I would like to see more care paid in this area, as Iain said, someone with a Brandon Kelly type approach would be amazing.

2) Support
As others have mentioned, support feels overwhelmed and in certain timezones waiting the majority of a day to get a response can dramatically impact timelines. The current support team is great, just feel too busy!

3) Quality/Speed of Releases
I’m not going to harp on about this as this is something you’ve clearly outlined in the blog post, but as you know a lot of the community isn’t feeling that confident at the moment.

Also I know the answer to this is going to be ‘no’ as usual, but is there any sort of ballpark when we can expect the next release? I’ve seen a few people mention playing with it on Twitter (Veerle et al) so it’s obviously in some sort of testing, and right now I’m not all that comfortable with giving the current build of EE2.1 to clients.

Thanks

My comments to Rick were of a personal nature and not related to the points of his feedback, but thanks for sharing your concerns in detail.

The best I can give you on a fresh release is “close”.  There are a couple issues that are holding up the release, as we refuse to send it out the door until we are thoroughly satisfied with the solution, and some of the issues are incredibly complex.

Thanks Derek.

Just so nobody misses it Kenny Meyers just published an excellent article which articulates everything much better than I could:  A Plea To EllisLab.

Thanks Ben for posting that, I cannot believe the amount of support it is getting from the community! Well i can, but i cannot believe the community has been so vocal all in one place.
Thank you Derek for responding over there too - i do sense this is beginning to be taken more seriously - i guess the main issue now will be the speed of the response with men down, and a gathering horde. The community is still vocal it seems, and as others have said when silence comes it will be too late.

I look forward to the Future EL updates on this topic as this will be the first stage of “improved communications” hopefully.

Sue makes some good suggestions about things people can do before asking a question in the support forums, but it might be helpful to ask for EE build/version, browser platform/version, and PHP memory as part of the form for submitting tech support feeds. The form could also list the newest build and have a checklist of suggestions like testing without extensions (with a link to how to do that) and testing in different browsers, etc. Sure, not everyone would fill this stuff out, but some people would and it would prompt people to enter it.

What I’m going to do personally going forward is post a link to the wiki post I created with the suggestions each time a new person asks a question. It won’t help with the other users who have already posted at least once, but I added a link to my signature file. I try to use that to display important items like a link to the bug tracker, version info, etc. Gotta go change it again. Will also add more to the wiki article.

http://expressionengine.com/wiki/HowTo_Post_a_Support_Request/

kiraracha, I’ll go add the info on how to turn off extensions too. 😊

To be honest Sue - i know you intentions are great, but i think in this case a wiki guide and a link in your signature will not work. After all people post first and then you respond - so they will not see the signature until they have already posted!!!
I like Kirkaracha’s idea of having a specific form that suggests to people how much help these would be if they completed them. I am sure your programming guru’s could create a custom form with these fields, that is then composed into a single forum entry to keep the current support process going. Although i appreciate i would rather they spent their time fixing EE’s other issues right now!

That aside an automated part like: http://supportdetails.com/
It could be part of the EE control panel as an accessory, so the user can just cut and paste - quick for all people, valuable information for you.

WIKI’s are great, but i get the feeling that 90% of your questions are from people like me who have not looked at the wiki or user guide (at least in enough depth) - hence they come to the forums for the quick and easy answer!