Thread

Are you guys serious? The release of IE8 as absolutely awesome for all of us.

Put the Microsoft bashing and other crap away and rejoice! If you’ve written standards compliant code you can probably develop a whole site in firefox (as I do) now and be comfortable it’ll work in IE7 and IE8. Any tweaks you have to do before launch will be absolutely minimal!

<link href="/css/w3c.css" rel="stylesheet" type="text/css" />
    <!--[if lte IE 7]><style type="text/css">@import "/css/msie.css";</style><![endif]-->

IE8 gets the same css as every other standards compliant browser now, eventually i’ll get to drop the conditional CSS. The quicker we drive toward that the happier I am!

@a.somervell but u gotta admit that IE got bad reputation. Personally I don’t like Microsoft at all due to it’s company strategy. They are leaching other ideas and presenting as their own within a little modification, now they like “Open Source” lmao and OS is like 500$ and normal salary at Croatia is like 600$ and what else… They are ALWAYS full of bugs, with their own stupid “standards”. With IE they recently started with W3C standards.

I admit, they are repairing their own not OS or application bugs, company bugs but IE is still shit. Until they agree on change their own company policies, it will be as it has been always no matter of W3C compatibility. As you said,

<!—[if lte IE 7]><style type=“text/css”>@import “/css/msie.css”;</style><![endif]—>

and go but now with IE 8 you don’t need to do this above anymore if you know how to properly write down css code. As for IE 6, Oh my god! That thing doesn’t support anything.

But anyway, yea they are better indeed but still I don’t like ‘em at all. Microsoft = lechers&&lamers;

Internet Explorer has been the bane of my existence for years but remember:

Microsoft is the most successful software company on the planet. IE5 was written for the intranet before the internet “happened”. It’s public knowledge the IE team was ripped apart after 6 to build WPF and have been hauled back to answer the call of web developers to create IE7, then 8 in quick succession.

Vista is a great operating system, 7 will be better. IE8 has answered the call and has gone further than anyone expected them to in this short space of time. I switched from Vista to OSX because I think its an even better (client side) operating system but you wont hear me paying out on Microsoft, they have hundreds of millions of users to drag along and those users dont like change.

Get over it and move on 😉

Yea, they are the most successful company because people are sheep’s. You tell ‘em do that, they don’t even ask if that’s okay or is there any other solution. As I said earlier, they are better 100% than before. Actually I really like vista. It’s cool but as I said, I don’t like Microsoft as name, as strategy and as idea. They are dirty. I don’t like dirty companies.

But haha “Get over it and move on” you said it on the right way lol :D

Please guys, stop saying Micro$oft or M$ to try and look cool. It’s an old thing that was stupid to begin with by people who thought they were rebellious against Microsoft, and it should die.

@stuffradio: couldn’t agree more, and I hate the term Windoze as well, it’s really sad when someone you admire makes themselves look like a tool when they use that term.

@nevio:  I can’t stand Apple for the exact same reasons you hate MS - and with Apple’s brilliant strategy of suing anyone who uses the term ‘pod’ in a product name is utterly ridiculous, and their OS is not that fantastic; I’ve been forced to use it—tell me, why do I have to pay for 3rd party software to get the mouse to actually be responsive?  I laugh at mac users every time I hear ‘click-slide, slap, slide, slap, slide slap’ - for those not in the know that’s a user trying to move a mouse cursor across dual monitors.

as for IE8 - i wish MS would stop making a browser; they can’t do it right or secure.  They can’t follow industry standards, and all-in-all make things an utter nightmare for those who aren’t MS zombies.

but I will say this:  to each his own.  I prefer Windows XP - simply because all of my hardware works, I’m productive with it and I can make it work how I want it to work.  If OS X or Linux is like that for whomever else then hats off to them.

I’m not a Linux fanboy either - except when it comes to servers… everyone else should just give up when it comes to servers.

IE8 gets the same css as every other standards compliant browser now, eventually i’ll get to drop the conditional CSS. The quicker we drive toward that the happier I am!

I agree that we need to drive quicker toward that goal.

However, IE8 will not get the same CSS as every other browser.  That’s only true with the Acid1 and Acid2 tests.  However, if you check Acid3, IE8 fails miserably.  They aren’t even trying to implement compatibility with it at all at this point.  It took a long time for them to catch up with Acid2, which I am happy about, but where all the other browsers finally have an alpha or beta getting a 100/100 or at least above 90/100, Microsoft is the only company not to have a browser in development that scores over 90/100.  IE8 scored 20. 

That means, if I have a client that wants to take advantage of these new emerging standards, I’ll still have to use conditional CSS.  By the time Microsoft becomes compliant with Acid3, Acid5 will be the standard.  The problem here is, they aren’t even trying to be standard compliant until they get so far behind they have no choice because everyone is jumping ship. 

Ok, enough ranting from me.

However, IE8 will not get the same CSS as every other browser.  That’s only true with the Acid1 and Acid2 tests.  However, if you check Acid3, IE8 fails miserably.  They aren’t even trying to implement compatibility with it at all at this point.  It took a long time for them to catch up with Acid2, which I am happy about, but where all the other browsers finally have an alpha or beta getting a 100/100 or at least above 90/100, Microsoft is the only company not to have a browser in development that scores over 90/100.  IE8 scored 20.

Acid3 is more javascript oriented than acid2.

Acid3 was in development from April 2007,[1] and released on 3 March 2008.[2] The main developer was Ian Hickson, who also wrote the Acid2 test. Acid2 focused primarily on Cascading Style Sheets, but this third Acid test focuses also on technologies used on modern, highly interactive websites characteristic of Web 2.0, such as ECMAScript and DOM Level 2. A few tests also concern Scalable Vector Graphics (SVG), XML, and data URIs. It includes several elements from W3C CSS3 working drafts that have not made it to candidate recommendations yet.

source

Acid3 is more javascript oriented than acid2.

Yes, it is.  However, browsers should handle JavaScript the same way… hence the call for standards.

Personally, I use JavaScript to display pages.  It is irritating when one browser will handle it one way, and another browser another.  Standards must be made and kept (unless you’re Microsoft, then you get to make up your own set of standards.)

You were commenting on the CSS implementation of IE8, that is why i responded.

When it comes to javascript, if you use a library it will even out the differences between the browsers.

My biggest design gripe at the moment is the webkit rendering of the the file type input. To create a similar cross-browser interface element now you have to hide the actual element and create a mock element using javascript.
It’s a bigger offense than not having CSS3 rules or javascript functionality other browsers have because this is a basic element.

@Grad Student

They all are just full of bugs. If we go on this way, linux is hard to get, mac is too freakin expensive and windows is as much as it can be a crap. Personally, I don’t like none of them. Microsoft got like few thousands of people working on it, mac I think as well and about linux, well no comment on that lol. So, the only thing left is who’s fuking with us. They are not publishing code. IE 100% passed Acid 3 but THERE IS NO POINT of distributing black technology when people like white technology. Because of that, we will always have some freakin bugs. We, developers, we need to spend OUR TIME on fixing already FIXED bugs. That’s the point of all. Keeping us smaller down so that bigger can get their ideas faster than we do. That’s freaking all about. Sometimes some of us accidentally with a good idea get out and whooila, you get a brand new Facebook or Youtube.

If we are going to tell about the quality, they ALL stinks. Every single browser, every single OS and the most of applications as well. BUT they works. Somehow lol.

We don’t have black market technology. We, developers are doing what we can with white. Until there exist bloody profit and money, we will not see the real power of today technology. AI is already out and who knows for it? Who can get it? Noone. And that’s the point. Keeping us out of real technology and giving us toys that we can play with, be mad as usual get some salary that we can live, somehow.

This freakin world is full of crap, how can anything else be not-crap? They cannot. IE 8 works better, IE 7 is working, IE 6 is ridiculous and irony is that the most people use IE 6. From last month I’m banning IE 6 users. I don’t care about them anymore nor that anyone who says to me that I’m not professional because of that. For last 8 years I’m struggling with that shit of IE and probably, soon, I will say enough of it and ban even IE 7 if that goes on my nerves too. 

We all, always talk about not IE, not that, I hate him, bla bla bla… Stop developing for that shit and when the most of developers stop to do things for IE, that thing will fail down or Microsoft will start to THINK and do what they needed to do a long time ago and that’s publishing already fixed version of IE xy. Probably they right now have like IE 12 and not IE8. This might sound ridiculous but I’m not sure that I said something wrong. 

Maybe u think that I’m nuts, but hey I know what I’m telling very well. We are living in a white world.

@nevio:  I can’t stand Apple for the exact same reasons you hate MS - and with Apple’s brilliant strategy of suing anyone who uses the term ‘pod’ in a product name is utterly ridiculous, and their OS is not that fantastic; I’ve been forced to use it—tell me, why do I have to pay for 3rd party software to get the mouse to actually be responsive?  I laugh at mac users every time I hear ‘click-slide, slap, slide, slap, slide slap’ - for those not in the know that’s a user trying to move a mouse cursor across dual monitors.

 

What do you mean by paying for a 3rd party software to make the mouse responsive?

Regarding Apple or Microsoft it’s all about the taste.

About four years ago I was starting my own firm. It was (and is) a small one, but I had alot of work, always looking at a deadline. I was using highend PC-systems (XP and later on the early Vista).

I wanted to use my computers for developing (Adobe Creative Suite mostly), using Office-style apps and surfing the web. I had a hard time depending on my systems.
I had to re-install my system alot due to viruses for instance or crashing harddrives.
This took me alot of time. Re-installing the OS. Installing drivers for gfxcards, soundcards, networking. Installing all my apps again. Configure my apps etc.

I decided to give Mac a try mainly because my little brother endorsed it. I bought my first iMac 20” Intelbased and it just worked. Period. That was several YEARS ago and I have not re-installed it yet. I still works. I gave it to my friend who runs Logic Studio on it now (on the very same but ofcourse upgraded installation which is 3 years old).

I run (for browsertesting purposes) virtual machines with IE6/IE7 alongside OSX.
My development workflow has been focused on the task and not fixing OS-stuff.

Ofcourse, OSX is not perfect for every task. But for developing webapps targeting ALL users regarding of choice of OS it’s the perfect one.

It comes in one flavour, MacOSX Leopard. It does it all. Comes with every Mac. $129.
Windows Vista has Home, Basic, Buissness, Ultimate and so on. The Ultimate version costs 5x that. Vista/XP has activation (sometimes if you decide to upgrade your soundcard you need to reactivate). OSX does not even have a serialnumber (ok, every license has one, but you don’t need to bother with it). Basically Apple trusts it’s users while Microsoft makes it hard for them to use their OS. None of my Mac-friends runs a illegally downloaded version of OSX. It was included with their Mac or they PAID the tiny price for upgrade to Leopard.

With every new Mac you get iLife with software for creating songs, videos, webpages (well… for novices) and such. It’s pre-installed. And you have Front-row, a nice “media-center” looking alot like Apple TV. Vista ships with a mediacenter too which is very good, but only in Home Premium and Ultimate editions.

I don’t hate Microsoft but I hate working with their products. It gives me headache. It’s ok to use it for short tasks (as a vm), but not depend on it.

I have a PC though, for gaming. That may be the only area where I find the PC superior. All the great titles ships for PC, you can upgrade your system to follow the latest high-end techspecs. But if my PC breaks it does not affect my buisness. I might not be able to play through Fear 2 for a while. Which is ok because Fear 2 does not pay my rent.

What do you mean by paying for a 3rd party software to make the mouse responsive?

I’m talking about the acceleration curve.  With Windows and Linux I’ve been able to set the mouse speed the way I prefer it for 10+ years and 5+ years, yet on Mac I’ve never been able to get it right, trying to move the mouse about a centimeter on the screen requires moving the mouse way to much on the desk, the only way to fix this is by installing a 3rd party program.

Regarding Apple or Microsoft it’s all about the taste.

I’ve already stated this.

About four years ago I was starting my own firm…....

About four years ago they had firewalls and anti-virus programs just like they do today.

I decided to give Mac a try mainly because my little brother endorsed it. I bought my first iMac 20” Intelbased and it just worked. Period.

Funny, I may have to reinstall Windows every once in a while, but its a burden I bear knowing that I can customize it, I’m not restricted by the amount of Ram, CPU, Hard Drives, or what I can or can’t do with that XP License.  I can install it on a Dell, a HP, an Acer, a laptop, a desktop, a server.  I can even install it on an Intel based Mac.

Let’s see you do that with your precious.

I run (for browsertesting purposes) virtual machines with IE6/IE7 alongside OSX.
My development workflow has been focused on the task and not fixing OS-stuff.

Wow, I do the same stuff… but even better if the OS doesn’t like to run in a VM - like… OS X (for example only)—I can install it to a hard drive and have dual, triple, quad, quint, or even hex-tuple booting.

Ofcourse, OSX is not perfect for every task.

You can say that again… wait for it…

Ofcourse, OSX is not perfect for every task.

Sorry, just had to.

But for developing webapps targeting ALL users regarding of choice of OS it’s the perfect one.

This is your opinion, just like I said in my previous post.

It comes in one flavour, MacOSX Leopard. It does it all. Comes with every Mac. $129.
Windows Vista has Home, Basic, Buissness, Ultimate and so on. The Ultimate version costs 5x that. Vista/XP has activation (sometimes if you decide to upgrade your soundcard you need to reactivate). OSX does not even have a serialnumber (ok, every license has one, but you don’t need to bother with it). Basically Apple trusts it’s users while Microsoft makes it hard for them to use their OS. None of my Mac-friends runs a illegally downloaded version of OSX. It was included with their Mac or they PAID the tiny price for upgrade to Leopard.

Not arguing the above because I can honestly say that I was one of the first to say that MS was ignorant and stupid to have more than one version of Vista; regular people who want to buy a PC don’t need to go to a store and see 5,6,7 or 8 boxes that appears to be basically the same thing.  Buying an OS is not buying a car…. but buying a Mac Pro is (zing!)  sorry, had to…

With every new Mac you get iLife with software for creating songs, videos, webpages (well… for novices) and such. It’s pre-installed. And you have Front-row, a nice “media-center” looking alot like Apple TV. Vista ships with a mediacenter too which is very good, but only in Home Premium and Ultimate editions.

Useless information when discussing how the OS is relative to webapp development.

I don’t hate Microsoft but I hate working with their products. It gives me headache. It’s ok to use it for short tasks (as a vm), but not depend on it.

Again, opinion, which I already stated in my previous post.

I have a PC though, for gaming. That may be the only area where I find the PC superior. All the great titles ships for PC, you can upgrade your system to follow the latest high-end techspecs. But if my PC breaks it does not affect my buisness. I might not be able to play through Fear 2 for a while. Which is ok because Fear 2 does not pay my rent.

My PC breaking doesn’t affect me getting things done because I can, with ~20 years of experience with PC’s, get back to productivity on my computer inside of 2 hours.

I know what to download from MS for faster updates (namely redist packages of Service Packs).  Installation files for the various apps that I use and I don’t mean things like iLife or MediaCenter, or any non-sense like that, I’m talking about a VirtualDesktop App, 101Clips, AnyDVD, CloneDVD 2, TurboNote, Pidgin, Zend, DaemonTools, WinRAR, WinMerge, RoboForm, Foxit, PSPad, FireFox, Thunderbird. Things that actually help my productivity.

I’ve even built a custom Windows install disc which can cut my re-install time down to under an hour that is completely automated (for those interested goog nLite), and I know how my computer handles so I know when something is wrong.

When something goes wrong with a Mac you get the Logo sitting there dumbly or a sad face and it just sits there, then you have reboot and press cmd, alt, shift, c to try and get to a prompt which you then have to know some command line tools, or you take it to the idiot bar - yes, I know about that place, I have friends with Mac’s… color me not impressed (long story).

Windows is my choice.  OS X is your choice.  Don’t try to convert me.

Guys, this was really supposed to be a topic about how yet another version of IE was going to affect us as developers, not a debate on OSes. 

Whether we develop on a Mac or a PC, we still have to deal with the fact that we’ll have to use IE to test our applications, since a majority of the world’s users use that application.

IE5 was written for the intranet before the internet “happened”.

I wonder how I was using netscape on the internet for many YEARS then before MS even had their own browser?  Back in Windows 3.1 days.