Thread

Hi everyone,

I recently joined a company as web designer, the company’s developer likes to use Joomla as a CMS (which I personally dislike as it seems to be a very awkward and non user-friendly system to use).

We are to begin working soon on a fairly complex site that will require multiple levels of membership, a complex forum, contact system between members and needs to be highly secure and policed as it is working with young children in an education capacity.

Working with Joomla on even small sites, I have concerns.

I have looked into Expression Engine and my initial thoughts would be that this is a much better system to use, but as I have said I haven’t been at the company that long and I don’t want to suggest a major change if my concerns about Joomla are unfounded.

Do any of you have any knowledge of Joomla and any thoughts on why it is not good for complex sites? I want to air my concerns with the company but not if as I said they are unfounded.

Many thanks for reading and any feedback would be greatly appreciated
Simon

I recently joined a company as web designer, the company’s developer likes to use Joomla as a CMS (which I personally dislike as it seems to be a very awkward and non user-friendly system to use).

Your assessment is spot on. I’ve done and manage a number of sites using Joomla and WordPress. The good news is that they’re easy to set up. The bad news is that easy of use comes at the expense of customization and flexibility. Joomla 1.5 is decent for someone who needs a quick, point and click, use-this-design, web site, but once you have needs to customize, it becomes a royal pain. Good for Joomla developers, I suppose.

We are to begin working soon on a fairly complex site that will require multiple levels of membership, a complex forum, contact system between members and needs to be highly secure and policed as it is working with young children in an education capacity.

If it’s a custom site, Joomla quickly becomes painful. A site developer needs to know XHTML, CSS, PHP, and Joomla to get something customized. With EE, all you need is decent ability in XHTML, CSS, and plunk in EE’s tags where appropriate. Otherwise, design and layout is all yours.

Oh, and Joomla’s security record speaks for itself. As does EE’s.

I have looked into Expression Engine and my initial thoughts would be that this is a much better system to use, but as I have said I haven’t been at the company that long and I don’t want to suggest a major change if my concerns about Joomla are unfounded.

I hear you. Been there, done that. Some prefer free and good enough. So, it’ll be important to frame your presentation and argument with features and benefits, with heavy reliance on customization, flexibility, performance, and security.

Do any of you have any knowledge of Joomla and any thoughts on why it is not good for complex sites? I want to air my concerns with the company but not if as I said they are unfounded.

Although EE sites can be simple, EE developers seem to specialize in sites that are more complex, more heavily visited, and which require strong security. The key emphasis should be the above points.

Customization - easy in EE with XTHML, CSS knowledge, and implementation of EE’s tags. Joomla’s customization requirements are more severe, and, since Joomla is a structured environment (which makes it easy to plunk in a template and go) customization can be difficult.

Flexibility - EE does not come with a pre-determined visual module layout. Whatever you can create in XHTML and CSS can be implemented in EE. Joomla sites tend to all look alike because of the module requirements.

Performance - EE has a number of layers of caching to enhance performance, even on sites with heavy traffic. The caching system is top notch. Joomla, like WordPress, requires add ons for caching, some of which work, others not so much.

Security - End of discussion. Google “security problems Joomla” and you’re likely to come up with a large number of pages. For EE, virtually nothing. Rock solid. Tight.

Support - The difference here is open source vs. commercial. You get what you pay for. I don’t know of an online support community better than EE’s Forums, and the EE support staff. They’re quick, knowledgeable, effective, and mostly mild mannered.

😉

security security security.

If you want to see one big difference, get ahold of a security tool that evaluates your website against threats, and uses known hacks. We use Acunetix, but it’s very expensive for a small issue like this.

EE sanitizes their code very well, and acunetix didn’t find a single security issue in my sites with the exception of a couple mistakes I had made. With joomla, it goes crazy with exploits and other issues, starting from the core on up.

the ONLY thing I wish ee did differently was not require a 777 on the cache and uploads. we’ve moved around that by setting the ownership to Apache and CHMOD the dirs to 755.

I will say, that out of all the software I’ve used, EE is the cleanest, most well documented, and by far the most secure I’ve ever used. it’s also extremely flexible and powerful while remaining efficient.

The support is also fantastic. I don’t know where you could become a user of software like this, post in a tech support forum and have responses (from staff) in less than an hour, and full back and forth troubleshooting that happens so quickly.

You’ll notice I’m a little biased because I like EE so much, but there’s a reason for that.

The support is also fantastic. I don’t know where you could become a user of software like this, post in a tech support forum and have responses (from staff) in less than an hour, and full back and forth troubleshooting that happens so quickly.

You’ll notice I’m a little biased because I like EE so much, but there’s a reason for that.

Amen. Rick and the staff probably take great pride in responses such as that. It’s earned. They deserve it.

Now, where’s EE 2.0?

😉

Your assessment is spot on. I’ve done and manage a number of sites using Joomla and WordPress. The good news is that they’re easy to set up. The bad news is that easy of use comes at the expense of customization and flexibility. Joomla 1.5 is decent for someone who needs a quick, point and click, use-this-design, web site, but once you have needs to customize, it becomes a royal pain. Good for Joomla developers, I suppose.

I’m going to disagree with you there. Yes, Joomla is easy to install and fiddle around with in the default mode. However, the extremely non-intuitive admin interface and the numerous and common bugs found in many templates make it pretty difficult to implement in a form where it is actually of value.

Drupal is far better but it’s forums are really lacking (although I have seen some versions with third party plugins that make it better). If you really need a complex forum setup with multiple levels of users and permissions, it might be worth your while to see what the upcoming Vbulletin CMS is going to look like.

I’m going to disagree with you there. Yes, Joomla is easy to install and fiddle around with in the default mode. However, the extremely non-intuitive admin interface and the numerous and common bugs found in many templates make it pretty difficult to implement in a form where it is actually of value.

Then what is it you’re disagreeing with?

I’ve used Joomla since before it was Joomla (Mambo) and it is, as you say, and I agree, “easy.” At least, easy to get a site up and running using some template. After that, it’s a pain in almost every way.

I don’t see much of a disagreement there.

You’re right, of course, about vBulletin’s forums. Complex, feature-laden, customizable, and many other platitudes can be dropped on vBulletin. My experience has only been good, other than the constant security issues (and frequent patches). EE’s forums do not have anywhere the bells and whistles easy-to-setup skins as vBulleting, though it is quite competent, and integrates very well with EE.

I suppose there’s a need to determine exactly the kind of requirements Simon needs, but even his base description starts to make Joomla look like a cumbersome, headache-ridden choice.

Thanks for all this guys, really helpful.

Security - End of discussion. Google “security problems Joomla” and you’re likely to come up with a large number of pages. For EE, virtually nothing. Rock solid. Tight.

Ronnie - I did Google as you said and found a fair bit of stuff, but alot of it was contradicted by other people saying there are only minor issues which are easily overcome.

Do you have any good examples of information online from reputable sources which will help me show my boss how bad or a security issue Joomla actually is.

Thanks peeps

Do you have any good examples of information online from reputable sources which will help me show my boss how bad or a security issue Joomla actually is.

Not without doing all your work for you.

😉

The sheer volume of security issues, breeches, problems, patches, and user headaches should be a cause for warning. The sheer lack of any similar issues for ExpressionEngine (around longer than Joomla) should be a good place to begin a comparison.

But don’t make your sales case only on security differences. Seriously, there is plenty of weight behind those other items to build a very good case why EE is a good choice going forward (again, there’s a need to know more of the specifics of your site’s requirements).

Not without doing all your work for you.

Lol sorry, I didn’t mean for you to have a look through for me, just wanted to ask incase you knew of some already.

In terms of what the sit needs, functionality-wise, it will have a few pages pre-login, then once the user then logs in, depending what type of user they are they will be taken to different areas of the site.

The site will be for education, so students will have logins, as will teachers and businesses. Students will be able to post questions to businesses and teachers, so will need some kind of control panel area, showing how many messages they have, and giving and linking through to an inbox type area to read and reply.

There will be a forum, and the site will need to have multiple look and feels depending on the pages, some two some three column layout. This is another area I thought Joomla might fall down on, as everything comes from just the index.php page doesn’t it? Making customisation a nightmare.

One thing I did want to ask re: EE was about the template area. Template pages are like pages in Wordpress and Articles or Categories in Joomla - is that right? One concern would be once the site is handed over to the client, editing these pages is done in the template area which is all coded in XHTML instead of just showing the textual content in a rich text editor that is easy for a client to view and update.

Is there a way around this with EE so it is easier for the client and they only see the editable text?

...just wanted to ask incase you knew of some already.

I’ve looked from time to time (similar threads pop up on EE) and they’re relatively easy to find. No offense is intended, and I don’t want to disparage the open source community’s efforts re: security on Drupal, Joomla, WP, et al, but the problems do tend to stack up.

In terms of what the sit needs, functionality-wise, it will have a few pages pre-login, then once the user then logs in, depending what type of user they are they will be taken to different areas of the site.

EE provides some pretty nifty group controls. The most difficulty I’ve had in such sites has been organization—remembering where everything goes, who sees what, who can login where, etc. It can get complex rather quickly.

The site will be for education, so students will have logins, as will teachers and businesses. Students will be able to post questions to businesses and teachers, so will need some kind of control panel area, showing how many messages they have, and giving and linking through to an inbox type area to read and reply.

That may depend on how you set things up, of course. That could also be handled via forums. The Control Panel area can also be segregated by member groups, so superadmins can see anything and everything, while other member groups can only see or do other things.

There will be a forum, and the site will need to have multiple look and feels depending on the pages, some two some three column layout. This is another area I thought Joomla might fall down on, as everything comes from just the index.php page doesn’t it? Making customisation a nightmare.

Amen. I hear that. Customization on EE is more a matter of organizational skills, plus a good mix of basic XHTML/CSS, and EE’s tags. Otherwise, site page layouts, overall site design (sections, categories, member groups, etc.), are pretty much what you want it to be.

One thing I did want to ask re: EE was about the template area. Template pages are like pages in Wordpress and Articles or Categories in Joomla - is that right? One concern would be once the site is handed over to the client, editing these pages is done in the template area which is all coded in XHTML instead of just showing the textual content in a rich text editor that is easy for a client to view and update.

I don’t find many similarities with EE’s template groups and templates compared to the point and click CMS apps like WordPress or Joomla. Joomla is easier to manipulate home page sections than WordPress, still anemic after all these years.

If you come from Joomla/WP experience, EE’s template groups, templates, and tags will take a little work to understand. There’s this “light bulb” moment that happens to most of us.

Templates “can” be pages, but there’s a Pages module that handles one off pages better (a page not tied to the content). Generally, templates are the “pieces” of a web page. The “index” template of any template group is the page, but templates are often used also for the header, main content, columns, footer, and any other areas that are repeatable across many pages. But that’s not all. Templates can be embedded within templates, so you can get organizationally crazy.  Additionally, a template group (holds many templates) can be a section of a site. Templates can also be set up as XHTML, CSS, Javascript, PHP, and so on, which provides even more flexibility.

“Weblogs” can also be used as sections, and then there are categories assigned to weblogs (sections). Again, flexibility is wonderful, but since you’re starting with a clean white board, organizing your pieces (not building them) may be your biggest challenge. And, frankly, organizing as THE challenge is so much better than trying to fit someone else’s idea of structure into your own design.

Is there a way around this with EE so it is easier for the client and they only see the editable text?

As to editing pages or content, I assume you’re talking about some kind of WYSIWYG editor for content? There are a handful of editors available for EE’s entry fields, and EE comes with a highly customizable (though non-WYSIWYG) panel which makes XHTML editing quite easy. As to editing templates, that can be done “live” in the text area within EE, or with any decent XHTML/CSS editor.

Try EE Core and begin by creating some content, and templates, and doing a few {embeds} to get the sense of it. It’s just so much different than Joomla, and when the “light bulb” moment comes, you wonder why people put up with everything else.

You’re right, of course, about vBulletin’s forums. Complex, feature-laden, customizable, and many other platitudes can be dropped on vBulletin. My experience has only been good, other than the constant security issues (and frequent patches). EE’s forums do not have anywhere the bells and whistles easy-to-setup skins as vBulleting, though it is quite competent, and integrates very well with EE.

I’ve been using vBulletin, and had a license (well multiple over time) for over 8 years now. So I’m really familiar with the software. A couple customers pay us to administrate their forums as well, one of which is pretty darn big. vB has some of the cleanest code I’ve ever seen in a commercial product. It’s written exceptionally well, and their implementation of things (too many to list) is just fantastic. EE’s forum module doesn’t have nearly the complexity of vb. But I chose to use the ee forum because 1. it can be manasged, and expanded to do anything you need, it just takes programming and time. but 2, and most important, it keeps the fluidity in tact for users.

I’m working on my personal site that is a script myself and my business partner wrote. we get over 25 million visitors a month, and the forums are going to be extremely busy. So much so we had to turn them off on the current site (not ee, but using vb) or we would never get anything done.

The ee forum module is well written. and while it may not be as complex, it does allow you do incorporate a lot of things that using a separate forum would not.

Since vBulletin is it’s own product it only makes sense that the development is much more intense and more time dedicated to it than the EE forum module. But it has all the functionality anyone could need for a forum. The ‘fluff’ is the social networking stuff which I’m personally glad EE doesn’t spend a lot of time on. I can’t speak for EE but if you look at the way it’s written, it sure looks like it was done so with the concept that the community, and third party developers could actually build business off writing modules etc. (think solspace).

The other thing to keep in mind, is your website is only as secure as your weakest plugin, product etc. If you have a perfect website (doesn’t exist) and there are no security holes, but you use a 3rd party hack or plugin, you can drastically reduce the security of your entire website. With that in mind, I’ve chosen to use no external parties for developement on the entire site with one exception. I use numerous SolSpace plugins and modules because i feel very comfortable with them.

So where is this all going? Joomla and other CMS software aren’t, by design, complex. They get that way due to community development and additional hacks. To me it’s much more important to keep things as simple, and clean as possible. Using ee for the forums, knowledgebase and wiki allow that to happen with no impact on overall site security.

To me it’s much more important to keep things as simple, and clean as possible. Using ee for the forums, knowledgebase and wiki allow that to happen with no impact on overall site security.

Well said.

I’d sure like to see EE Core as a $99 (use it however you want) product. The real beauty there is the magic trio of Weblog, Template Groups, and Templates. It’s simple, elegant, flexible, powerful. Bells and whistles are nice, but less restrictive EE Core license would do well to bring more users into the EE system.

Thanks for al lyour help guys, really appreciate it. Gonne be using the Core as a trial over the next few days, try and get to grips with it all.

require multiple levels of membership

Might want to explain this a little. With EE you can have multiple member groups but individual members can only be in one group at a time.

——
As a side note, I had a client whose techies talked him into that wonderful world of “open-source” and free and Joomla. He had some similar requirements as you. It was great for the developers, they were fully employed for a very long time and my bet is it cost him a bloody fortune and I’m not sure they ever pulled off everything. In his case, EE would have worked with just a few mods and custom modules.

Just a quick look:

Joomla - SecurityFocus.com

ExpressionEngine - SecurityFocus.com

Again these were just quick searches, so your mileage may vary based on how and where you do searches for security related information.