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Has anyone found a solution for this in the backend and a way of representing the method in the front end?

A hierarchical page editing format would make development and administration for my clients so much more intuitive not to mention logical. The previous “Pages” module (now Tome) by Mark Huot did this but unfortunately has been replaced by the new EE Pages module which fails to address one of the core reasons for having a pages module in the first place. A tree structure is a logical method of organizing content. Every operating system in the world adopts this method so I’m pretty sure that it works. A large percentage of content management systems out there also use this method.

With such a system you still have the ability to add different dynamic content sections but being able to manage where your pages are located throughout your site is the crux. EE fails miserably in this area.Sure you can create categories and drop content under these categories but you still have to hard code your titles and there is no internal method of organizing this content. Say you have a category with 30 content items attached, how on earth do you change the order unless you add a field to order by. Try do this when you are presented with the Edit Weblog entry list. There is also the matter of sub content which can be easily addressed with a tree structure.

I believe that the whole site should revolve around a tree structure. Where there is dynamic content (as in Tome) the item in the tree is specified as just that. Additionally, there should be a simple way of creating lists out of this structure. We all use lists every day. It is the basis for all of my sites navigation. A list for the top menu or drop-down, sub-nav lists for navigation and listing of content under sections (ideally under categories).

When I add a top level item (category) I want my site to dynamically change. I want to click up or down to change the position of my pages. EE’s flexibility is found in the template system, not in the way content is managed currently. They need to correlate.

How do people survive or convince their clients to operate in a confusing illogical manor? Thoughts or suggestions are welcome.

*mini rant over*

You might be interested in this discussion.

Hehe, I thought that would come from LG. Looks promising. Thanks Ingmar.

Well said, Random_Seed.  I shared exactly the same view as you are.

Guess I’ll try Tome module or hope for LG’s navigation menu to come to the rescue.

I believe that the whole site should revolve around a tree structure. [...]

Wow! Stop!
I agree that for quite a lot of sites a classic tree structure is the perfect fit, but EE gives some sites so much more because of it’s open structure. EE is only one of the few systems I know that works similar to Knowledge Management principles. Perhaps you’ve heard of “Topic Maps”, which is in my humble opinion the key argument to use EE. I believe this is the way in which most websites will structure their information in the near future: create as many topics as you want and place them “anywhere”, the logic and relations between all those topics will be created in templates where you can reuse as many topics as you need.

So in a nutshell: a tree structure can be usefull, but only if the information-need asks for it. And if it does, EE has various tools aboard to create such a tree structure (although other CMS’s might do a better job at that).

Just my €0,02…

Interesting! I’ve never heard of Topic Maps. Seems to continue on the concept rhizome, which is often used in theories of the internet. And, I agree, EE is great for anyone who wants to get beyond hierarchical structures. Not sure that’s the way clients think, though.

Well said, Random_Seed.  I shared exactly the same view as you are.

Guess I’ll try Tome module or hope for LG’s navigation menu to come to the rescue.

Thanks Arnold. I like the way the Tome module works. Except that having to create categories is a bit of a shlep. I don’t know if the tags fully support the kind of output that I’m looking for. I should do some more testing. It may be the only option for me until Leevi’s Navigation extension is released. The nice thing about the LG Navigation extension is that it extends the built in Pages module which means that your sites will be compatible in the future. If one or the other gets better you have the choice.

Wow! Stop!
I agree that for quite a lot of sites a classic tree structure is the perfect fit, but EE gives some sites so much more because of it’s open structure. EE is only one of the few systems I know that works similar to Knowledge Management principles. Perhaps you’ve heard of “Topic Maps”, which is in my humble opinion the key argument to use EE. I believe this is the way in which most websites will structure their information in the near future: create as many topics as you want and place them “anywhere”, the logic and relations between all those topics will be created in templates where you can reuse as many topics as you need.

So in a nutshell: a tree structure can be usefull, but only if the information-need asks for it. And if it does, EE has various tools aboard to create such a tree structure (although other CMS’s might do a better job at that).

Just my €0,02…

Hi Ronny,

I agree, but… Content has to go somewhere. It cannot float around your site in the hope that your users will eventually find it. A topical Map in my opinion is better suited to a type of data repository. A typical example of a ‘Topic Map’ is the very common blogging format where content is filled under a number of different sections/topics and can be browsed by related, categorized or chronological filters. I would be quite happy to handle this type of data in it’s own weblog and define the map by categories, relations and date range. Fixing where the content goes is not my point. We all know that content that sits in an EE weblog can be displayed in anyway we see fit through the incredibly flexible templating system. Nevertheless, a site has to have a uniform structure. This would include two main types of content, Dynamic and Static content. My point is that content has to go somewhere. In order for it to be accessible, content has to be part of a hierarchical navigation system. It doesn’t matter if the content is ‘Topical’ or not. That is the designers choice of representation. So to be specific, I need a hierarchical tree ‘navigation’ system that forms the foundation and main entry for site sections that is logical and accessible.

A ‘Topic Map’ is merely an array of interlinked hierarchies. They could be illustrated in the form of a number Tree structures. So to push my point even further. We need the tools to create multiple hierarchical structures to define the main entry points for our site that has dynamic and static content sections. For now I would be happy with only one Tree Structure.

Leevi’s LG Navigation extension appears to be the only way forward for me right now.

Interesting! I’ve never heard of Topic Maps. Seems to continue on the concept rhizome, which is often used in theories of the internet. And, I agree, EE is great for anyone who wants to get beyond hierarchical structures. Not sure that’s the way clients think, though.

Thanks for that Yvonne. I like the concept of a Rhizome, but I think that is better suited to the growth of information as opposed to how information is accessed. I believe that within non-conformism there is a certain amount of conformism. Conform to non-conform and that is a structure in itself. The key to the Rhizomes success is freedom, freedom to grow and expand infinitely.

EE provides the flexibility in the front end but lacks severely in the back end. My clients want freedom to do it themselves.

Thanks Arnold. I like the way the Tome module works. Except that having to create categories is a bit of a shlep. I don’t know if the tags fully support the kind of output that I’m looking for. I should do some more testing. It may be the only option for me until Leevi’s Navigation extension is released. The nice thing about the LG Navigation extension is that it extends the built in Pages module which means that your sites will be compatible in the future. If one or the other gets better you have the choice.

I have installed Tome and look like it is the best option right now to provide a friendly page management.  I am going to use Tome static pages to handle all pages.  The only killer is the lack of pagination in EE:weblog:entries.  There is a work around but it means it becomes a fixed page. While we are on the subject of Tome, do you know if it allows clients to assign a desired template on a given page.  It seems only admin has the right to see the configuration button.

While we are on the subject of Tome, do you know if it allows clients to assign a desired template on a given page.  It seems only admin has the right to see the configuration button.

As far as I know you can only do that from the admin section. Are you wanting to change the template dynamically?

As far as I know you can only do that from the admin section. Are you wanting to change the template dynamically?

I want to allow my clients to use the “Configure Tome” button so they can assign a pre-defined template on each tome page.  This button is not visible in my assigned member group.  Wonder which parameter is controlling its visibility.  Right now, they can only create a page with default template.

Random_Seed, I’m totally with you on this. It just clearly sucks how content is managed by EE. Sure EE gains a lot of flexability by the fact that every single page can look different. However, lots of it is lost by the way EE handles content. Almost every other major CMS out there does a better job on this.

Why can you not simply create a document (content item), put it in a folder (asign it to a category) and have EE output a list of it that can be used to create navigational menus. No one ever said a document can only be in one folder. As folders (categories) are virtual, you can just asign one document (content item) to several folders. This way relationships can be established between content items etc AND you can output it to dynamically create menus and the like. Another great advantage would be that once you make a change to a content item it will automatically update the menu aswell. That’s what you would consider flexible as it regards content.

Additonally a feature like contextual menus would be useful. But right now, EE doesn’t MANAGE menus at all. Not to mention dynamically.

Another downside of not being able to hierachically manage content is the lack of a pathway and the lack of an abillity to dynamically output sidemaps.

I’m fairly new to EE. So far I really do like it. Actually I think it is the best (used Joomla, Drupal, e107, wordpress, b2evolution, contrexx, modX, typo3, typo light and silverstripe before); nevertheless I think it can (and hopefully will) be much better. Especially as regards they way content is actually managed not just how it is displayed (that’s what EE already is superior over other CMS).

I hope you understand that this is meant as constructive crticism aiming at making one of the best even better. As a matter of fact I just bought a license so you will be stuck with me for at least a year 😊
Would be awesome if we could get a reply from the Ellislab team what they think about hierachical menus and if it’s planned to improve EE’s content management abilities in future versions or why they may chose not to do so.

Thank you.

//Edit: Oh, and yeah, I think you should of course be able to rearange the order of entries/posts/articles/content items by simply doing so. Why not introduce a sort ID to every single item in a category. Uhm well, ok, that does require a hierachical structure of content items again…

It just clearly sucks how content is managed by EE.

Let me put it this way: Every CMS has a slightly different way of doing things. EE’s approach is article based, other programs use a page based approch. Neither approach “sucks”, they are just different. I feel that if you consider one approach clearly superior to the other, your choice of software should reflect that conviction.

Almost every other major CMS out there does a better job on this.

They do it differently. I cannot speak for others, but I for one clearly prefer EE’s approach. There are numerous ways of implementing a menu structure of sorts, by the way (most people use categories, but that is only one way of doing it). Having said that, the page module is a fairly recent addition to EE, and there is clearly room for improvment. You probably should take your suggestions to the feature request forum, though, where they will actually be read by the developpers, and not to the “General Discussion” forum which is not officially monitored by EL employees. Thank you.

I’ve posted a number of ways to create dynamic menus in EE.

EE is a paradigm shift coming from a page-based CMS - and you’ll need to get past thinking of sites in terms of documents and folders as well.  But I think once you clue into it you’ll appreciate it’s flexibility - I know I’ll never go back to a CMS that thinks about sites in that way.