Thread

Hi there,

I have a rather urgent question around EE.

We have purchased EE and now our developer has come to us and suggested we should use PyroCMS instead of EE based on the following arguments:

a)  Modifications and further module development in Pyro CMS is much easier than it is in Expression Engine.
b)  PyroCMS is open source and we therefore won’t have any Licensing issues in the future.
c)  Anyone with experience in Code Igniter can start development in Pyro CMS for adding modules after just few hours of mentoring.

Can you please give some guidance from the EE perspective to these arguments?

Additional questions are:

1.  We are building a Headquarters website and then planning to duplicate the site and use it for different countries, all managed via the Multiple Site manager – do we need to purchase another EE license (& the license for any addon’s) for each website, or can we handle the different sites with one license and the multiple site manager?
2.  What other supposed “licensing issues” might arise in the future?
3.  What is the situation with EE and multiple languages – we have offices in Asia, South America, Europe and the Middle East and need to be able to provide a web presence in each of these languages…
4.  We plan to integrate the CMS with our CRM – ie. Get the two systems syncing info when people register on our website – are we allowed to alter the code of EE and if so what are the restrictions, or are any elements of the code “locked” that won’t allow our developers to alter?

Note – we are a training/consulting company and do not plan or intend to use EE for anything but building our own website. We are NOT a web developer and don’t plan to use it in any way for 3rd party websites, except for our regional offices/subsidiary LLCs.

Thank you for taking the time to answer these questions. I would prefer to stay with EE and need some solid arguments as to why we should do so.

Thanks,

Ben

Hi Ben,

I’m reposting my email to you so that the community can benefit and jump in with more information.

a)  Modifications and further module development in Pyro CMS is much easier than it is in Expression Engine.

I suppose this would be a place where your developer might need to give you more insight. Both PyroCMS and ExpressionEngine are built on CodeIgniter, another EllisLab product. Beyond that, I’m not very familiar with PyroCMS. I do know that ExpressionEngine has a very active and creative add-on community, and they’ve accomplished some incredible things using the development platform that EE provides.

b)  PyroCMS is open source and we therefore won’t have any Licensing issues in the future.

Hmm… that’s a common selling point of Open Source, but it’s not necessarily true. I love Open Source products; our own CodeIgniter is Open Source. However, licensing can be a hugh mess within Open Source depending on which version GPL license something uses, mixed with MIT, Apache, CreativeCommons, etc.

What issues in particular does your developer foresee with ExpressionEngine? I might be able to answer those better than a general concern.

c)  Anyone with experience in Code Igniter can start development in Pyro CMS for adding modules after just few hours of mentoring.

Well, since CodeIgniter powers ExpressionEngine as well, I suppose the same could be said of ExpressionEngine. That’s how I got involved with EE development anyway. Knowledge of CodeIgniter allowed me to jump in pretty quickly.

1.  We are building a Headquarters website and then planning to duplicate the site and use it for different countries, all managed via the Multiple Site manager – do we need to purchase another EE license (& the license for any addon’s) for each website, or can we handle the different sites with one license and the multiple site manager?

Multiple Site Manager sounds like a great fit for this. All you need to purchase is a single ExpressionEngine license along with Multiple Site Manager, which allows you to run 3 total sites from a single ExpressionEngine installation. Each addition site beyond that is only $49.95. That brings your total cost of ownership with EE way down compared to running an EE installation for each language.

Regarding add-on licensing, different developers have different licensing terms. Some allow you to purchase a single license for their add-on and use it across all your MSM sites. A few require a separate license for each MSM site you use their add-on with. You’ll just need to check with the developers of the add-ons you’re using to see what their terms are.

2.  What other supposed “licensing issues” might arise in the future?

I’m not quite sure what your developer is referring to here. I haven’t run into any licensing issues with EE. Perhaps he could lay out some potential issues for you, and I’d be glad to answer those.

3.  What is the situation with EE and multiple languages – we have offices in Asia, South America, Europe and the Middle East and need to be able to provide a web presence in each of these languages…

Many companies use EE with MSM to run multi-language versions of their site. Do you plan on having all the sites be translations of the English version, or will the content on the sites be unique to that locale?

4.  We plan to integrate the CMS with our CRM – ie. Get the two systems syncing info when people register on our website – are we allowed to alter the code of EE and if so what are the restrictions, or are any elements of the code “locked” that won’t allow our developers to alter?

None of the ExpressionEngine code is scrambled or obfuscated in any way, so developers can always look through the code to see how it works. Altering the core is definitely not recommended though, since doing so can break your installation when you update the software later. It also make it impossible for us to provide support for a system with core hacks. Instead, we suggest developers extend ExpressionEngine using the add-on development platform. That allows your custom work to be modular. Connecting EE with your CRM is exactly the kind of thing developers can do with our development platform. So in short, yes core hacks are possible, but the best way to do extend the system is through add-on development.

It sounds like your develop really wants to use PyroCMS instead, but none of the reasoning so far really make a compelling case for PyroCMS over ExpressionEngine. In comparison to PyroCMS, ExpressionEngine has a massive, active, helpful community behind it, along with the support of a company dedicated to ExpressionEngine’s success. Part of that means we’ve got excellent support for you. Free, forum-based support from EllisLab staff comes with your ExpressionEngine purchase, and we’re about to roll-out a private support system that provides private, priority help for websites that need it. That’s not even an option with PyroCMS.

As your discussions continue, please feel free to post back questions based on the arguments your developer is presenting. I know the EllisLab staff and our community would love to help!

Hi Ben

Just downloaded and installed PyroCMS.

Based on that 10 minute exploration mission, on the surface these are my thoughts (mine).

- It seems directly comparable to WordPress in that out of the box, I can publish a page and a blog article.
- It’s very beautiful out of the box, if a client had a limited budget we could build them a site in minutes.

Why I will keep my eye on it, but prefer EE for now. (I)
- By nature Expression Engine is more of a framework for building a CMS than a CMS out of the box. I talk about the concept of ‘types of entry’ with my clients to try and explain to them what is actually possible within their requirements.

While you CAN extend WordPress as I’m sure you can PyroCMS to deal with more than a ‘page’ and a ‘blog’ entry types, for EE, dealing with various entry types is at the heart of it’s approach.

RE Support:
Kevin makes some brilliant points and has hit the nail on the head. For me (besides the above) the support network I gain by using EE within my business, means that just about EVERYONE hear is serious about using EE because of the value they place in it, BECUASE of the price they paid for the licence. We hardly ever encounter time-wasters and while $300 for a licence is not to be scoffed at, it’s still very realistic for any business or web designer.

While the support network you get with WordPress is mature, it will take some time for PyroCMS to reach the level of WP and EE.

Hope it helps Ben, keep the questions coming and welcome to the forums!

Wordpress vs. EE or Pyro =  Apples and Oranges.

Wordpress is a complete framework and CMS.  If your mom has a sewing business and wants a website she can update, WP is the right guy for the job.

If you mom has a sewing business that allows for detailed ‘on the fly’ customization with renderings of the customization, and a custom order / inventory tracking system, you’ll need custom modules developed.  You can do this in WP, but it’s not fun.  Code Ignighter is a better framework from which to develop custom web applications. (serious stuff)

Pyro and EE are beefy CMS that run on the Code Ignigter framework.  I’ll use CMS, but since they have blogs, forums, etc turnkey, they are more than a run of the mill CMS that gives you a wysiwyg editor to change text / photos.

If you need a turnkey, out of the box basic CMS, use wordpress.  You’ll be up and running, making pages in 5 minutes.

If you have a project that needs custom programming with a CMS module, you can use EE or Pyro.

As far as EE vs. Pyro, the new update of Pyro is awesome.  I don’t know anyone who hasn’t used it and been impressed.

Disclaimer:  I use EE,  because I’m a creature of habit managing a corporate presence who pays the bills 😊

Thanks for the replies.

After speaking with the developer and testing out both CMS, am almost there with a decision. Must say I loved the simplicity and ease of use in PyroCMS, how the pages were listed out, and ability to set permissions on each page as I create them.

Yet, as good as it is - it is still developing and growing, for example they have no multiple site manager (they keep discussing it in the forums but it isn’t done yet), or a Wiki module for compiling knowledge around products/services.

It also makes me begin to wonder - what happens when we want X module in the future, and EE has it but PyroCMS doesn’t. I am sure it is cheaper in the long run to have a developer tweak a module to suit our needs rather than develop it from scratch in PyroCMS.

So to cut a long story short - I see there is little choice. Expression Engine is a powerful and mature CMS that allows us to do what we need. PyroCMS is an awesome and simplified CMS that is still growing and while it may be amazhing in teh future is too much of a risk right now. (unfortunately - as the usability was AWESOME!).

Ben

Wise man 😊

Keep the questions coming as you get into it Ben.

i am just finishing up a multi lingual site - and i have to say doing it in EE was a pain.
Admittedly the majority of the pain come from learning the abstract ways of getting EE to realise which languages are being used (i.e. getting system messages in the right language for errors, etc).

But this really does depends on your approach.
If you are using EE MSM and each site is seperate, with different content, and structures - well then thats fine as it would be no different from producing X number of CMS sites under one control panel.
If your using a single site, with a language switcher for the same content - then i would suggest starting to do some investigations into this now - just play seeing as you have the license - because your language packs for each phrase used on the site, setting cookies to trigger EE into the right message, efficiency of queries and load on the server, language switching relating to SEO friendly URL’s, plugins that “just don’t work that way”, etc etc etc, will cause you head aches.

I have played with Pyro, and i too like it. However, i remain with EE as i think it is more of a framework cms than pyro is - but pyro will suit many uses really well.
Pyro also has a $30 (i think) addon called streams which basically gives you the ability to create custom channels as you do in EE - so the flexibility is there.
But i do not know much about Pyro and multi-language sites as this is not something i have tried.

I’ll add my two cents, as a non-professional web developer—meaning that I don’t make my living at web design/development, but it pays for my addiction to technology. 😊

Here are my product selections:

1. ExpressionEngine - for corporate clients and for situations requiring high stability and customization. Honestly, the add-on market can’t be beat. I’d rather pay someone $50 for a plug-in than spend a day coding the PHP myself.

2. PyroCMS with Streams - for pro-bono and low-fee work, or for building simple, proof-of-concept sites and prototypes. The product is very nice, but the Streams add-on is a “must” for PyroCMS. Also, I trust any product with Phil Sturgeon’s and Adam Fairholm’s hands involved, not to mention some other very smart people.

3. Mojomotor - for simple, static sites that make it stupid-simple for clients to update, this is a wonderful product with a decent add-ons market. I would like to see some more investment behind MM, but I was glad to see it mentioned in EllisLab’s executive report.

That’s all for now,
Glen

If your doing professionally I feel EE is really your best option, it takes a bit of a learning curve, but it pays off in the end.

Arginer - does the additional info help?

Thanks a lot for these explanations, I’ll try EE and Pyro to make my own opinion.

Ben? What about you?

We went with EE in the end. I had to twist the developers arm. But there was just no way I could commit to trying Pyro - when the Multiple Site manager was such an integral part of what we needed.

We are in the final days of development now and the Developers have come back and said - GREAT CMS - handled everything we threw at it no worries.

So we are very happy.

Thanks for the follow up.

Ben

Hey guys,

I don’t swing by here too often but saw this on the homepage and thought I’d tow the party line a little.

So firstly, PyroCMS has never aimed to be or intended to be an alternative to ExpressionEngine. They are both CMS’ but that’s about where the similarities lie.

PyroCMS aims for extreme simplicity, while ExpressionEngine aims for extreme power and flexibility. With EE you can build your entire website and make anything happen, while PyroCMS aims to do about 70% of stuff with absolute simplicity and let you download, install or build modules for the other 30%.

The system is free to use, open source, DWTFYL sort of deal and in that case it’s pretty handy for developers who want a CodeIgniter base to knock out “mom and pap” sites on a low budget. That said we have recently released a Pro version which mainly just adds Multi-Site Management and Admin Themes, meaning you can skin the heck out of the backend and change the look and feel completely.

What I will say, is that while EE2 is extrmenely powerful, if I had to teach it to “Bubba” who runs a gun shop, he’d probably have a bitchfit. PyroCMS is so obvious to anyone that they can click about and work things out - which sometimes is what you need - but there are plenty of things it just cannot do out of the box that EE2 can.

I hope that was a fair answer. I love both products. 😊

Thanks for adding your thoughts, Phil. It never hurts to have multiple items in your arsenal for dealing with clients. 😊 Feel free to start a new thread if you have any more questions.