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Hi - we have just about finished our first commercial EE site, and I’ve been very impressed with how quickly one can develop using EE.

Our next project is a deal more complex, however, and requires various different types of user, with different permissions (with regard to accessing areas of the site and posting), pay-to-use subscriptions for some members and (eventually) advertising (that our client is convinced will make their fortune).

There will be download areas, forums, wikis etc.

They have done some research and think that Drupal best suits there needs - are they correct? Will I reach an upper limit with regard to flexibility and features with EE, where Drupal is renowned for being very flexible?

My other concern is that one of the main things I thing lets EE down is the control panel. The CP is great for me as the developer, but for the client it seems a little complex. Also, from the clients perspective, the file uploading leaves a lot to be desired. Is there any way of radically altering the CP. (BTW I have tried using stand alone entry form and Solspace’s helper - but related custom fields don’t seem to be supported when populating an edit form)

I really don’t want to learn yet another CMS, especially one as supposedly complex as Drupal.

requires various different types of user, with different permissions (with regard to accessing areas of the site and posting)

Access control is an area in which I consider EE to be significantly weaker compared to Drupal and the workarounds scale poorly. Maybe EE 2.0 will catch up, but for now I only dream of organic groups and taxonomy_access.

Solspace’s permission module might help, but it’s been withdrawn for quite some time.

Do you mind if I ask you now that your post is a couple of months old how does EE compare to Drupal?

Well,

I have build a couple of EE sites now… and they were very quick to build. EE allows you to knock up a CM driven site in hours (front end takes a little longer!)

However, I am constantly frustrated by some of the limitations of EE (customisation of the back end, some of the coding retsrictions etc).

I have a long long way to go before I can confidently build a Drupal site, the curve is very steep - so I will definately continue with EE for a while yet.

For more complex sites I would use Drupal. For simple content managed websites with only a couple of admins use EE.

Hope this helps.

They have done some research and think that Drupal best suits there needs - are they correct?

I’m not being rude when I say this but I think you have your answer right there in the sentence above. How exactly does the client know from the small amount of research they have done that Drupal is best for them? Have they actually installed both systems, configured them and operated them both to the fullest of their extent? I am thinking, probably not!

Also do they not value your input. Not being rude to yourself or your client but if I had someone come up to me and try to tell me my job then I wouldn’t allow it. Quite simply if the client wants you for that job then they should hopefully trust your judgement. If you have been doing what you do for long enough and making money at it then it is probably fairly certain that you are doing something right somewhere.

If I was suddenly told by a client that they wanted their site moving across to a different platform or creating from scratch in it but I have never used that platform before then I would kindly remind them of how many hours, months, years it has taken to learn one platform and if they can wait that long for me to learn the new platform and also pay me to do so then I will gladly make their site in it! 😉

Just a thought really but if your clients don’t respect your judgement then you are probably better off without them.

Best wishes,

Mark

[EDIT] - I know I will probably get shouted down for what I have just said but as I have said above this is just my personal views on the matter and no offence is intended to anyone.

You don’t “have” to take the job, and as others have said they probably haven’t looked that deeply into it. The point here is that you should be recommending the best CMS for the job in hand whichever one that may be.

would that I could turn away anoying clients - I’d probably never build another site!

In the past I hd always build CMSs bespoke, so I really didn’t know too much about EE or Drupal.

As it turns out, the client was correct - EE would not have been able to handle this project - Drupal did it with ease.

I amd not saying that either architecture is better than the other - just that they both have their strengths and weaknesses.

Just out of interest what part of the site was it that EE wasn’t able to handle?

Best wishes,

Mark

The main stumbling block the user flexibility and the potential to have multiple blogs (dynamically created for cetain users types)

Users needed buddy lists, the ability to be informed when people intheir buddy lists post articles in the blogs, wikis, forums or FAQ.

Also the site (in phase2) will have to be linked to a credit card processing service to allow certain user types to diplay banner adverts and specific events (in the events section).

Also every section (blog, wiki, forum etc) needed to use the same set of categories - taken from a master list.

Now, I’m not saying that all of this is impossible with EE - I just think that Drupal does it with less hacking.

Also one can make the the CMS backend look anyway you want to.

Marc

would that I could turn away anoying clients - I’d probably never build another site!

In the past I hd always build CMSs bespoke, so I really didn’t know too much about EE or Drupal.

As it turns out, the client was correct - EE would not have been able to handle this project - Drupal did it with ease.

I amd not saying that either architecture is better than the other - just that they both have their strengths and weaknesses.

I disagree that a project can be done in Drupal but not EE.  Forget about Drupal and EE, there is really just PHP and MySql.  The difference between the two systems is ultimately the finished code which is available.  If you can do something in Drupal but not EE then I am assuming you are saying there was a 3rd party module available for Drupal which has no equivalent in EE yet. 

I do agree they both have strengths and weaknesses though I am not sure what they are.  Last time I did anything with Drupal I swore I would rather stab out my eyeballs with a fork.  The templating system was just ridiculous and I am not sure it is any better now.  Joomla is the same way.  With as horrible as a templating system these things have I wonder why they even have a templating system at all.  Why not just use raw PHP?

Since then… I found EE and template love.

Yes, Drupal is much easier for making the control panel look like the rest of the site.  In fact, when you get a template, that template styles the front end and the back end.  I always though this was a problem though.  The design for the front end typically has totally different goals than the control panel.  Because of this, they need totally different designs.  This is the way EE, Joomla and Wordpress does things.  Civicspace fixed this problem at one time and I am not sure if Drupal has moved farther in that direction.

Coding in the EE templates can be a pain for developers new to EE (if you can’t find EE tags to solve your problems.)  The parse order gets in the way sometimes, but this is typically a problem only for new developers.  If you know the system then you can get around these issues.

I believe Drupal seems closer to that “bespoke” CMS that you feel comfortable in.  I think that is because the templating system for Drupal is not as abstracted.  Drupal even has multiple templating systems that can be used (including Smarty.)  That means the template will be a PHP developers joy and a designers nightmare.  Sounds like you are on the PHP developer side of the fence.  😉

I have worked with other PHP developers who have made the same arguments about the “problems” of EE and how Drupal gets around those problems better.  In each case the real problem was that the developer I was working with just didn’t know EE very well.

Just to add a couple of things… I posted this before you made your reply, whoops.  Also, a “sub control panel” can be created with EE using SAEF’s and the user module from Solspace.

As mentioned above, the Drupal control panel does not always fit the design needs of the site.  The ExpressionEngine control panel is much better for general purposes.  This is great because good control panels take forever to build.

Also as mentioned, you are right, there are a ton more add-ons available for Drupal.  This can be a good thing, or it can be a problem.  The more 3rd partt add-ons you use the more security headaches you have to worry about.  Joomla is always fixing security problems.  I have had Joomla sites which I kept up to date only to get exploited by a 3rd party module.  Drupal has the same problem.  With EE, I can decide if I want to upgrade to the latest build based on the bug fixes rather than a security vulnerability.

well, this is not really an argument in which you will ever see a consensus - it is a debate that polarises opinion.

I will continue to use EE for smaller jobs because it is so quick to roll out sites with, but I think that Drupal has the edge for bigger, more complex sites.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, and it certainly not my intention to start another ‘What’s best - Drupal or EE’ debate.

well, this is not really an argument in which you will ever see a consensus - it is a debate that polarises opinion.

I will continue to use EE for smaller jobs because it is so quick to roll out sites with, but I think that Drupal has the edge for bigger, more complex sites.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, and it certainly not my intention to start another ‘What’s best - Drupal or EE’ debate.

The developers I have been working with made the opposite decision.  They will be using Drupal for smaller sites because it is free and EE for the larger sites.

I also do a lot of work on Joomla sites.  I don’t like it, but that particular developer does.

Yes, opinions vary and that is fine but unfortunately I still have to fight this war every day.  😉