Thread

I’m not sure where this should be posted… it’s not a request for support, but it’s more about the general state of EE product care.

Background:

I’m a developer with 15 years of experience, and I’m a huge supporter of ExpressionEngine, Code Igniter and this community.  I’ve spent a lot of money on licenses, and have built some fairly fantastic things with expression engine.  I estimate that we have grossed about $1M in revenue from sites built on EE1 or EE2 with thousands of customers.

Overview: What the hell is going on?

2.4.0 was released (without a single mention in the official “release support forum” with the clever description, “try the RSS feed, it’s delicious” - it’s also devoid of any information about the current state of the software. Either have a releases forum and use it, or shut it down.)

I see that there is a blog post, and a related forum entry for said blog post… and then there’s a weekly spam list (FRUP) which I’m not sure to sift through and look for new things I should buy, or if there are truly any bugs that I need to know about.  I see that there have been zero mentions in the FRUP about errors in the software.  There’s also a bug report - which I try to read through, but it’s continuously flooded with new bugs that haven’t been reviewed yet.

Real World Example - Template Restrictions Bug:

I posted my experience of the error in the support forum without any response for nearly 30 hours. During this time, we tried to give presentations of our system to some new customers.  Our system looked bad, and I can only blame myself for doing an upgrade the day before a customer meeting.  I found the bug referenced in another thread where someone was having a similar issue. It would have been fantastic for a notification of some sort (in the control panel, to my email, a twitter feed… whatever) about a fix found to a significant bug in a newly released update. I would LOVE to have any kind of notification of confirmed bugs of newly released software. 

I know that other software development organizations perform “Release Candidates” prior to a public (hopefully stable) release.  Is that not the case here?

Software has bugs - especially when it is first released - I know that better than many - that’s not the issue.

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My core complaint is the lack of concise communication to the front-lines
about key issues with the software we purchased.
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Questions:

1.  Is there a concise location where I should be viewing the current status of the software?

2.  Is there any method of official notification to the developers when bugs are discovered?  ...in other words, when there is a significant bug (such as the “template restrictions…” bug) - is the expectation that I’m supposed to experience the error, then sift through all the above and try and find the solution myself?

3.  What is the stability testing process that is performed prior to the release of software?

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Bottom Line:

Expression Engine is an EXCELLENT PRODUCT with an EXCELLENT TEAM behind it.

I expect EXCELLENCE IN COMMUNICATION.  Right now I feel confused at best, abandoned at worst.

Hi Mark,

I hear you. I know you’re frustrated, and I want you to know that we’re listening. In fact, we’ve been enlightened regarding a lot of these issues recently, and we’re working hard to make it better. Over the last year, EllisLab brought a lot of new people on board, myself included, to make a whole lot of positive change in the company, in the software, and for our users. You want better communication from us, and we’ve been working to make sure that we communicate much more clearly. Some of the changes so far are visible, and I want to outline some of that for you, and some of them have yet to be seen. Great things take time to craft, and it’s no different here.

You seem really upset that we failed to mention the 2.4.0 release on the ExpressionEngine Releases forum. We did fail there, but I want you to know that this was a simple oversight. We do regularly use that forum to announce releases, and we simply let it slip by this time. I should note that we also update you within your CP (if you’re a Super Admin) that a new version is available, and that notification should now be showing up in your CP.

If you make a point of routinely checking the bug tracker, then you’ve probably noticed some changes we made recently. In an effort to more clearly communicate to our users through the bug tracker, some things have been tweaked. Bug statuses are now clear as a bell, so it’s immediately apparent where the bug is in the process of being triaged by our developers and on its way to a fix. We also removed the 9 levels of severity that we used to require users to select upon submitting a bug. That’s ridiculous, and we shouldn’t have been asking users to do it. Instead, we now ask the one question we know is important to you: Is this bug a show-stopper for you? You’ll see that was checked on the bug you ran into, and we actually had a fix up within 1 business day of being reported! I think that’s pretty amazing.

If you’re looking for information on issues that may be found in the software as a check before you upgrade, the bug tracker is indeed the place to find that. If you know something’s a bug and can’t find it already in the tracker, report it. If you’re not sure, just ask our support team. We don’t have an official mechanism for notifying EE developers of new bugs other than the bug tracker, and here’s why: a significant bug for you might not be for anyone else. And others might be completely thrown for a loop by a bug that doesn’t matter at all to you. It wouldn’t make sense to bombard you with notifications about the issues others see as show-stoppers.

I do want to note one thing that you mentioned. You seemed upset that we responded to your forum post about a day later. We do strive to respond to requests on the forum in a timely manner, and we actually shoot for responses within 2 business days. Unfortunately, we’re not able to guarantee response times with forum-based support, but I have some good news. We’ve heard the community on this, and I’ve actually been heavily involved in crafting the new support services that we’ll be announcing soon. I know that doesn’t solve the issues you’re having in the short term, but my hope is that this news allays the worries you’re having about EllisLab hearing your concerns and working to improve things in a big way. We’ll soon have options that allow you to choose just how fast you need a response from a support agent.

Regarding Release Candidates: That’s not something we do with ExpressionEngine, but I think I do have a solution for you. We’ve simplified and clarified the version numbering scheme we use for releases in the last year. First, we got rid of the build number, since it only seemed to confuse everyone. Next, we began tying a real meaning to each digit in the version number. Here’s what you can expect each version number to mean, using example version numbers to represent the format:

EE 2 - Major Release
This is a feature-packed release, representing big changes and a major jump forward.

EE 2.3 - Feature Release
This is a release containing new features as well as bug fixes and general maintenance work.

EE 2.3.1 - Maintenance Release
This release does not contain any new features, only bug fixes and general maintenance.

So while we don’t do release candidates, and we always recommend performing upgrades locally and in an environment that allows time to fully test your system before deploying to production, hopefully this version numbering scheme gives you a better idea for when you might want to upgrade various projects.

In terms of stability, our developers have been incorporating a lot of new testing techniques over the last year, and we’ve seen the number of high and critical bugs plummet as a result. I can’t go into the specifics of what tests they’re using, but I can assure you that EE has made major strides in stability in the last year.

I know you’re frustrated, Mark, and I hope I’ve been able to put aside some of that. We don’t mean to abandon you at all. Our community is growing exponentially and the last few years represent some growing pains for us all. I hope you’ll stick with us as we unveil some pretty exciting stuff in the near future.

If there’s anything else I can help you with, please let me know.

Thanks for your reply, Kevin - much appreciated.  I understand very intimately the type of work, the late nights, and blood-sweat-tears that are shed to put products like EE out to the world.  I love the product, it is my life-blood, and I continue to build world-class systems using the software.  If I didn’t care about the end result being excellent - I wouldn’t be bitching… I’d be moving on to a different platform.  Again, thank you for your dedication to our mutual success.

A few follow up points - and perhaps a little better clarify from me:

To me, it continues to boil down to “I want to know about the show-stopping issues about the current release” - and I’m not finding that.  Give me a search result page that I can review the officially identified issues.

The notification of the release of 2.4.0 wasn’t what I was upset about.  The lack of a specific, concise, consistent place to address issues (i.e. dialog as a community) about a release seemed to be lacking - although you could make a case for the forum post about the blog post about the release… instead of referencing a forum post about the release.  Not a big deal, specifically… but the point is the lack of a single, consistent, dedicated location for me as a developer to be able to discuss the issues around a release.  I don’t think the bug tracker is the best place for that type of discussion…

Notification of a release in the control panel is fine - but I want to be able to quickly and easily review a list of known issues with the currently released software.

The 30 hour wait for the discussion forum reply wasn’t my attempt to knock on the wait time - that wait would not have occurred if I knew where to find the solution that had already been identified… but hidden in a swamp of murky communication.

Regarding the bug tracker

That’s fantastic that you are asking for “is this a show stopper” from the submitter, but:

where do I see a concise list of “these are the currently identified show-stopping bugs in the currently released software?”

Maybe I’m just not seeing the right link or button or search option… but I don’t see how I can get that info.  Currently, I’m wading through the “these are duplicates, these are being address sometime in a future release, these are new…”

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And major-feature-maintenance release numerology is fine… but are you implying that any of the above are not ready for production?

I have come to expect from developer communities (such as PHP and others) that a public, stable release is ready for production - additionally, it’s not generally my job to have to sort out show-stopping bugs from commercial software. (This is a blanket statement with much discussion to have on both sides - even the biggest best commercial software companies have released significant bugs in critical software… I’m not trying to suggest that 100% of the time you must be producing from a Software Utopia of Bug-free Fantasy.)

Release candidates allow the bleeding-edge testers to work out the kinks… and the rest of us to wait for the stable releases 😊

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Thanks for supporting, I really appreciate your time

-Mark

To me, it continues to boil down to “I want to know about the show-stopping issues about the current release” - and I’m not finding that.  Give me a search result page that I can review the officially identified issues.

That’s a good idea! I’ve passed the idea along to the guys responsible for changes to the site. Can’t promise anything, but they’ll have a look at it.

The notification of the release of 2.4.0 wasn’t what I was upset about.  The lack of a specific, concise, consistent place to address issues (i.e. dialog as a community) about a release seemed to be lacking - although you could make a case for the forum post about the blog post about the release… instead of referencing a forum post about the release.  Not a big deal, specifically… but the point is the lack of a single, consistent, dedicated location for me as a developer to be able to discuss the issues around a release.  I don’t think the bug tracker is the best place for that type of discussion…

I can understand that, but for what it’s worth, we do usually see that discussion take place in the forum post that’s connected to the blog post—it essentially acts as that blog post’s comments section—rather than the Release forum post. It’s rare anyone responds to those posts.

where do I see a concise list of “these are the currently identified show-stopping bugs in the currently released software?”

I think your idea above about being able to filter for show-stoppers as a search option is a good one.

And major-feature-maintenance release numerology is fine… but are you implying that any of the above are not ready for production?

Not at all. We don’t consider any public release anything less than stable or we wouldn’t release it. I just wanted to highlight that we’re being very intentional with our communication across the board, even with seemingly technical details like our version numbers. To be sure, a maintenance release that adds no new features and only means to fix existing issues should be more stable than the feature release it’s succeeding, but we don’t intentionally push out feature releases with new known issues. Even feature releases contain bug fixes and general maintenance. In fact, with our new testing regimens, every new release is more stable than its predecessor, and our devs have really been knocking it out of the park when it comes to bug fixes lately.

Thanks for supporting, I really appreciate your time

-Mark

Thanks for your willingness to share your concerns, Mark. Again, we’re listening, and we’re so glad to have a passionate community with folks like you in it. If none of this mattered, nobody would get fired up about it. But it does matter, and it’s why I love my job. So thanks for being a part of this, and don’t ever feel like you can’t speak up.

Thanks Again, Kevin.  Onward and upward!