Just lost another big job for a client that required an open-source CMS and thought I’d use this opportunity to make a few comments Feel free to disagree or add your thoughts
- Nearly all government jobs these days (at least in NZ) either require, or give huge preference to open source software (for a number of reasons I wont go into right now). A lot of larger private sector clients do the same.
- We are therefore struggling to ‘sell’ EE as a CMS, considering the only real advantage is that we are familiar with it and enjoy using it. Neither of which benefit the client. ‘Security through obscurity’ is a pretty weak argument
- EE, clearly with very limited development resources, are progressing extremely slowly, with very little significant development in 2 years. Single 3rd party developers are making bigger contributions to EE’s advancement than Ellislab (or so it seems). Theres plenty of support staff, but if it was just more user-friendly and experts were encouraged to contribute to the forum, they would need half as much support, and could afford a lot more developers. EE does do a lot of things right, but still theres so much that needs work.
So our options are:
- Quit client work, or stick to smaller private jobs, missing out on nearly all the big (50k+) contracts. This is sustainable at least in the short term, but not if we want to grow quickly, and in the long-term EE will inevitably be outpaced by open-source systems.
- Start using an open-source CMS
Hypothetically, if EE was open-source, its user base would expand rapidly, and the system would develop much more quickly. Ellislab would lose their primary income stream, but would also lose most of their overheads, and could come up with other creative ways of making money, such as other open-source systems do. I love devot-ee and Ryans doing a great job, but the add-on marketplace should logically be owned by Ellislab, and integrated with the EE control panel.
With the talent we have in the add-on community, think how far EE could go. I realize the chances of this happening are slim to nil, but its food for thought at least. I think this goes for all developers - the more EE grows, the more valuable it is to say that we’re experts in it, and the easier it is to sell to clients. Not to mention we’d regularly get new features instead of feature requests.
Just wanted to add that 5 years ago a small company just down the road from us in Wellington, NZ, released their previously proprietary CMS under an open-source licence. Its called silverstripe and now used on millions of websites, and they managed to build a very successful company out of it.
Hi guys,
- Nearly all government jobs these days (at least in NZ) either require, or give huge preference to open source software (for a number of reasons I wont go into right now). A lot of larger private sector clients do the same.
Are they the same ones that use MS Windows as their choice of platform for all their desktop computers? [cynical me]
I was recently involved in tendering for a fairly large project which stipulated that the platform must be Open Source, but we won it with EE. Codeigniter, which EE is based on, is Open Source so in effect the licence is simply for a premade interface. Ok so that’s not exactly the same but you see the point hopefully.
One fact that swayed the tender our way was EE’s security record and total cost of ownership. If you look at the likes of Drupal, Joomla etc and just tot up the cost of applying security updates every month or so then a one time fee of $300 for an EE licence is amazingly cheap.
EE is not for everyone. I don’t think anyone made the claim it was. It looks like the restrictions you’re experiencing are the ones you’re creating. Why couldn’t you have done the job with an open source CMS if that’s what your client wanted?
I must be confused because I don’t understand the problem.
EDIT:
By the way, I want to stress that I didn’t intend to come off negative if that’s what it sounded like. Re-reading my post it kind of sounds like that.
My point is that I just figured all developers used EE as ONE of their tools for clients, but not as an all inclusive. There are no platforms that exist that will work for everyone. I prefer to do everything in EE and since 2002 I’ve been pleased with the results. But as you mention, sometimes clients just prefer to do things their own way. Which we support.
Although I don’t agree with Dave about EE becoming a OS (free platform) I can relate that I have lost 3 BIG jobs this spring to wordpress. I made the decision over 6 years ago to dedicate our shop to EE rather then try and juggle all the different CMS’s out there and I don’t regret it but since EE 2 has been released I have seen more companies choosing Wordpress or Joomla over EE. It is not a financial decision, but rather administrative preference.
I do agree with Dave about the third party developer community being part of the EllisLab network. The current system is confusing and limits the ability to streamline features like updates, and automatic installation. Things that are built into wordpress.
I have also noticed that the forum community is not what it once used to be. I know personally I just don’t have the time I used to have to participate but in general the moderators, although good for guiding people to common RTFM answers, distract from what was once a great community of smart folks solving problems. Now you get “make a feature request” as a answer.
Don’t get me wrong, I love EE and Rick & company. My points here are meant to help improve the product and experience as well as share some of my observations over the last year or so.
One fact that swayed the tender our way was EE’s security record and total cost of ownership. If you look at the likes of Drupal, Joomla etc and just tot up the cost of applying security updates every month or so then a one time fee of $300 for an EE licence is amazingly cheap
Dont mean to be cynical but it seems that EE’s security record is mainly due to less people using it, so bugs take longer to find if they are even found at all. This is what I meant by security by obscurity. Actually found a major security bug in EE 2 weeks ago - http://expressionengine.com/bug_tracker/bug/16264/ - with more people using EE this could easily have been exploited. Glad you managed to get the job but in our experience, updating EE is more trouble, and introduces more new bugs than any other CMS I’ve used. You could argue the leading open-source products are a lot more secure due to such a wider population of hackers continually trying to compromise them
Anyway not much point getting into the pros & cons of open-source. I have no problem paying $300 for a high quality product that makes my development life easy. I’m just trying to point out that if you graphed EE’s progress against the main open-source alternatives, EE is going to get overtaken soon. I’ve heard a lot of people say this - that theres been very little tangible progress in EE2 in 2 years. Yes theres a file manager, but ‘Assets’ still beats it. If its going to stay commercial, Ellislab needs to hire more programmers, talented ones. Would love to know how many people they’ve got working on it. And more needs to be done than just tack on new features, conceptual issues need addressing. EE was designed a long time ago - it may have been ahead of its time then, but EE2 was little more than the same concepts rewritten in codeigniter…
Michael, I completely agree re the forums. Sometimes seems like its just me and the moderators. All the ‘this doesn’t work’ questions get answers, but as soon as the thread gets moved out of the tech support forum, it gets little help. Thats the fundamental problem of a commercial CMS, people expect Ellislab to provide all the support. If you look at internet trends, this commercial model is dying.
JT, I see what you’re saying, we just didn’t want to have to use different CMSs for different jobs. EE has the framework to build nearly any type of site that fits into a CMS, for everything else theres a custom job in Ruby. So frustrating seeing ‘must use Drupal’ or ‘must use an open-source CMS’ on nearly all government RFPs. Bluedreamer - yes they are the ones that still use PCs with IE6, but they’re the ones that throw 100k at a project that could be done for 20k.
We love EE too, hence why I even bother writing threads like this, just so frustrating seeing basically the same product today as we did in the private beta 2 years ago, when EE has the potential to be the best.
I’m not sure where the idea that a commercial approach to software is dying?
In 2010, EllisLab had 33% year over year growth: marking our best year ever in terms of finances and overall business performance. This started with the release of the ExpressionEngine 2 Public Beta in December of 2009 and continued steadily throughout the year. We experienced December’s normal drop in sales, but even there, sales in 12/10 were considerably above 12/09. In pure business terms, 2010 ended strong and we’ve seen that same growth continue in 2011. We’re on pace to equal and possibly exceed last year’s growth.
I can also attest that my EE2 book is selling at roughly double the pace of it’s EE1 predecessor.
I’m sorry to hear you are losing work to an open-source requirement, but it seems to me you have only one real choice if you want that work….and asking EL to open source a successful commercial product that’s feeding a number of employees and their families isn’t one of them..
Thats actually great to hear, wish we heard news like this more regularly. Not sure how I missed that post actually, Leslie seems like a really nice guy. Also congrats on the book sales - although ironically the easier EE is to use the less books you’ll sell
But also given the success, its harder to understand the lack of progress over the last 2 years. We have no problem paying the $300, thats not the real issue. Before EE I was used to getting regular new features in open-source CMSs, so assumed with a commercial one, progress would be even faster. I’m just pointing out that at the current rate, EE will be no different in 2 years, while the faster moving alternatives will have completely evolved. And I don’t want to see that happen
Going open-source (I know its not going to happen) doesn’t necessarily reduce income, theres plenty of other ways to make money once you have a certain volume of users. Silverstripe started as a small company just down the road, then open-sourced, and now has about 40 employees, based on a system that (in my opinion) isn’t half as good as EE. Theres a good article about the ‘free’ business model here - http://www.wired.com/techbiz/it/magazine/16-03/ff_free?currentPage=1
I guess theres no point getting frustrated or posting feature requests, we either need to live with it as is, build feature X ourselves, or use another CMS
Silverstripe is also a service-based company that does a lot more than offer a CMS to people. They’re not really apt comparisons, in my opinion. Even if EE was turned open source, every minute their team spent focusing on it would be a minute not spent on a paying project. It’s not exactly a recipe for a great incentive.
Anyhow, there are definitely things with EE I’d love to see improved. I’d kill for a better CP (or, at minimum, a few changes to the licensing agreement to let us share altered CP files as there’s only so much you can do with override.css). And don’t even get me started on the forum module (compared to IPB—which is completely changing the game—and even vB, as sad as it has become, the module is just years behind the times).
But the overall licensing mechanism isn’t one of them. Aside from being cool and playing to a bunch of developer’s inner hipster, there’s no inherent, transcendent value to a product being open source. Instead, that value is created on an individual basis in each specific instance by whatever community grows up around it. Just flipping the switch and turning EE into an open source project won’t magically create that value.
Then, of course, that has to be weighed against the business side of things for EllisLab. Forget EngineHosting; EE is their bread and butter. Without it, their revenue drops dramatically overnight. That means one of two things: either they come up with some magical replacement (unlikely), or they go under completely.
Now, I’m sure you’re saying “well, EE will still be around.” And sure, that’s a given: it’s now open and free to float amongst the world. But quite frankly, I don’t think of myself as having the right to tell EllisLab that they should give up their claim to what is their intellectual property and their right to gain financially from it. No one does.
As for the more specific complaint regarding a lack of progress over the two years past, there are two ways I’m thinking. First, that you’re wrong and we’ve seen significant progress (though lord knows I’d have preferred things to go faster, wink wink :D). And second, that the past two years have relatively little in the way of influence on the next two. In a matter of speaking, it’s an independent variable game: past slowness has absolutely no bearing on what they may or may not accomplish in the future.
Good points bluestrike, I know open-source isn’t a viable option for ellislab, I was more meaning to discuss some of the problems it could solve.
Re. revenue, like I mentioned earlier they should own the add-on marketplace. I use devot-ee often & have quite a few add-ons on it, but its just strange for a 3rd party to have a monopoly on this. The add-on marketplace should eventually be accessible via the EE control panel, which won’t be possible without Ellislab in control of it.
Maybe I’m wrong and am just forgetting all the improvements EE has made (judgment could be impaired by all the feature requests floating around in my head), but the only significant developments I can think of are the file manager and safecracker. The filemanager still isn’t was Brandon Kelly - 1 person - can do with assets, and safecracker was just fixing a fundamental problem with SAEFs. If so little happens for so long - not to mention the forums not being what they used to be - it makes you worry about how things are going behind the scenes. I even notice they took the ‘statistics’ off the bottom of the forums - new signups was one of the few ways we could tell how EE was going.
Hopefully you’re right and the next few years will see it take off!
There is little doubt that a great business can be formed around open source. It certainly would be an option for EE, both now and in the future. But that is a business decision. Many businesses don’t want to change - many don’t even want to get too much bigger. We never know, from the outside, what the thoughts and goals of the EE core owners are.
It’s a big world and EE is a tiny tiny company. They certainly don’t need government jobs or any particular job at all to succeed. Your own success is a different matter. It would seem smart not to build a business on top of one product or one small company…
Most of the EE skills are transferable to other products, so why not dip into Wordpress, CMS made simple or another package that does things EE does not (or at least does them with less customization)??
Now, playing “SimBusiness”, if it were me I would probably strongly consider making EE open source…...and maybe having the core existing team focus on some top-notch add-ons….like (hint-hint) a nice upgraded forum, etc.
These add-ons would sell for more money per “code and support hour” than the program itself. What’s not to like about that? Support could be sold in blocks or by other means.
But that is pure guesswork and speculation. I support any and all methods to make some cash while providing a nice service and piece of code to the community.
I understand what Dave is saying. We just lost a job because the client wanted WordPress instead of EE. While I personally think EE is better for what it does, clients tend to go the popular route as it’s easier. This particular client said they were already familiar with WordPress (even though their site wasn’t WordPress). They also received several quotes with everyone (except us), recommending WordPress. Yes, Dave and I could have just built the respective site with WP, but I think both of us prefer EE.
While I’m not saying EE should go open source, I think this discussion is important. It’s EE’s choice on the direction they want to take. I do think a lot can be gleaned from what other EE developers are saying since they are in the field with clients that are using (or not using) EE. Each year (this is my 6th using EE) there’s a greater frequency of clients making comments like this.
On a side note I thought this was interesting about what Presidential candidates are using as their CMS. I think each site could have easily selected EE as their platform. Sure would have been nice for EE and all of the EE developers out there. http://wpjourno.com/2011/08/17/presidential-candidates-wordpress-cms/
wow! It is my first time to read this kind of stuff. Can you evaluate my site? Formica Countertops
This is an example of one of the issues that makes long-time ExpressionEngine users think open-sourcing the codebase is a necessity. ExpressionEngine Forum Module hasn’t been updated in any material fashion since the date of its first release, waaaay back in 2005. Forum spam has been a perennial issue, users have complained, but EllisLab hasn’t devoted any attention to the many issues with the Forum Module.
EllisLab was far ahead of the game in 2005. Six years later, including nearly four full years of standing nearly completely still, that is no longer the case.
@handyman - You’re right it comes down to Ellislab’s goals as a company, they may be happy just chugging along, earning a nice profit. Would love to know what their plans are actually, this is the sort of market where you can get explosive growth. You would think if they saw any potential though and wanted to grow, they’d take the risk and double their development budget. By the way we actually came to EE after spending years in Wordpress. Its mainly Drupal we’re losing clients to, the latest version has similar flexibility to EE’s channels/custom fields - Wordpress is still a bit behind.
@Jon - Exactly - except we still wouldn’t get the job if we offered to build it in Wordpress, since these sort of clients want to see the latest X sites we’ve built in it to prove our competence. So we just need to commit to one CMS, and the fact that EE isn’t open source makes committing to it not the smartest business decision. In the last month we’ve lost 30k of work to Drupal… Jobs that were pretty much guaranteed if we had a recent Drupal portfolio.
@Brendon - good to hear I’m not the only one talking about open-source. Fixing the issues with the forum is the tip of the iceberg, theres so much outdated/redundant code/concepts in EE that its going to take years for a small private development team to fix.
@reynolf - wow I always wanted a formica countertop! I hear they’re great for putting things on. While you’re here, would you like some cash so you pay the bank fees and release your Nigerian uncle’s million dollar estate?
All I’m really trying to point out is that IF EE wants to grow, they have to consider open-source. Its the only way they can compete, at this rate they will be a long way behind on features within a couple of years, and more and more website jobs will require an open-source CMS. If they dont want to grow, and are happy just sustaining themselves, then thats fine, but I, and others I’ve talked to, should know about this so we can invest our time in learning other CMSs.
Of course you can’t just flick a switch and make something open source, it needs a lot of planning as theres still a company to sustain. But if EE did decide to switch, I think it could do extremely well since right now it can beat the open-source alternatives in many ways. If it waits too long, the alternatives are going to outpace it.
@Dave - we actually fixed that bug and provided a solution in less than 24 hours. It did not warrant an immediate public release because of how few people were impacted, and of those people, few would actually be categorized as a security issue. I don’t mean to belittle the impact it had on you, and that is why it was assigned critical status and a fix provided for you and others that were affected immediately. But to categorize it as taking two weeks or that our security record is due to obscurity is disingenuous.
@Brendon - our forum uses Akismet for spam protection. I say that not to point the finger at someone else, but to point out that even the solutions with the widest net sometimes fail. Even crowd sourced forum code would occasionally fall to spam.
All of this to say that I appreciate your story, Dave, as it’s informative. Just like my favorite feature requests are those that explain a real life case of how feature X will make someone’s day brighter, my favorite business stories are those that contain real impact, and we certainly do want to be able to make decisions that help you make decisions that lead to success. Can I ask one question though for more detail that you kind of glossed over? Specific to New Zealand, what are the number of reasons for the push towards open-source? And what have you found are the primary reasons that a $50k contract stumbles on $300? I’ve heard an answer to this particular question from a few firms before, but I think their answer is quite different from what you’re experiencing in your sector, so I’m interested.
@Dave - sorry, a correction, the 24 hours was from when the bug entered our tracker. From your original report of the issue in the forums, it was a full three days, and though your report did come in on a Saturday morning, I’d be happier if we had gotten the fix to you within 24 hours as I originally claimed.
Hi Derek - thanks for the response! Sorry if it just sounds like complaining, the only reason I write things like this is because I see such a huge potential in EE and want to continue using it (we’ve actually spent the best part of a year on our e-commerce module). And yes I really appreciate the prompt fixing of the security bug (although it would have been found sooner with more people using EE), but have had significant delays on other bugs.
The problem isn’t the licence costs, they aren’t stumbling on $300, they’re stumbling on the fact that:
- Vastly more companies use open source systems. Therefore if something goes wrong or they need/want to change providers, it will be easy to find another company that supports that particular CMS. This is probably the main reason.
- More people are familiar with open-source software, particularly Drupal & Wordpress. Regardless of EE’s ease-of-use, if a staff member is already familiar with Drupal, a company would rather use Drupal.
- They’re never heard of ExpressionEngine
- If we do offer to use an open-source system, they want to see the latest X sites we built in it.
- In government jobs, or even large organisations, they put out an RFP to which they get a number of responses from companies such as ourselves, which they evaluate against a number of criteria. The problem is, this is done by an employee who doesn’t understand what open-source even is, they are simply ticking a box and weighting it accordingly
- Open-source is such a commonly used term now that for people that don’t understand it, not being open-source is instantly seen as a negative factor.
In the end, they’re just out to minimize risk. The decision maker doesn’t get any extra credit for making good decisions, but could lose their job for a bad decision. So even if EE will give better results, (which, at the moment at least, it will) theres little chance of convincing a government organization to use it.
It isn’t yet mandatory to use open-source, but its ‘encouraged’, and more and more RFPs in the last year mention it. I wouldn’t be surprised if it becomes mandatory in future. I originally thought this was mostly an NZ-specific issue, but looks like its trending this way everywhere.
Just out of interest, Derek, it would be great to know Ellislab’s general goals for EE. Where do you see yourself in 5 years? Are you happy being a niche CMS or do you want to get out there and take on the big players? Are you happy with EE2’s pace of development or can you see this improving soon?
The problem isn’t the licence costs, they aren’t stumbling on $300, they’re stumbling on the fact that:
- Vastly more companies use open source systems. Therefore if something goes wrong or they need/want to change providers, it will be easy to find another company that supports that particular CMS. This is probably the main reason.
- More people are familiar with open-source software, particularly Drupal & Wordpress. Regardless of EE’s ease-of-use, if a staff member is already familiar with Drupal, a company would rather use Drupal.
- They’re never heard of ExpressionEngine
- If we do offer to use an open-source system, they want to see the latest X sites we built in it.
- In government jobs, or even large organisations, they put out an RFP to which they get a number of responses from companies such as ourselves, which they evaluate against a number of criteria. The problem is, this is done by an employee who doesn’t understand what open-source even is, they are simply ticking a box and weighting it accordingly
- Open-source is such a commonly used term now that for people that don’t understand it, not being open-source is instantly seen as a negative factor.
Additional marketing aside, I don’t see how any of the above items are the responsibility of EllisLab.
If your target market is government organizations which favor open source solutions then you either need to start using those platforms to serve your market, change your proposal / selling approach, or just change your target market.
Feel free to disagree or add your thoughts
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