An observation - many try to dive right into creating an actual site, their site, often under deadlines and that site requires advanced features. I think this delays the learning/understanding. Many then rely on the forum participants to implement everything without really having the basic EE knowledge. Taking the time to just “play” with the basic templates is time well spent.
Good point. I was one of the ones who dove right in. In fact, on both of the first two question threads I started, one of the responses was along the lines of, “Wow, you’re diving right in, aren’t you?” I’m not up against a deadline, and I did take a quick run through the documentation first, but without the context of something I was working on, it was of limited value. (That’s more a function of my learning style than anything else.) And once I started having problems, I looked at the Boyink stuff and Lisa’s series and the like, but they didn’t really help.
context of something I was working on, it was of limited value. (That’s more a function of my learning style than anything else.)
I generally work best that way too, have a purpose. I have a local install of EE that is my play pen. The weblog entries have nothing to do with work but are of interest - golf courses, butterflies, whatever interests you - Includes posts and pics, etc. It started out based on the original, minimal install, just added more posts, changed the categories, etc., and of course changed the layout. When I want to investigate another EE feature, I go there. Want to try a plugin, I go there. Has worked out well.
I agree that the documentation is a weak point with EE, but these forums have been invaluable with extremely fast turnaround time with spot-on responses. This thread does point out a place for improvement for EllisLab.
Sorry guys, I have to disagree. The documentation is one of the main reasons I always recommend EE. Have you ever tried to read WP’s or Drupal’s documentation—they suck! Whatever documentation they have is not as organized or well written as EE’s.
With EE I never had to think about buying a “dummies” book to figure out how to use and develop with the system. And I don’t consider myself a programmer. There has been many times, I’ve ask a question, and Lisa (and others) point me right back to the docs. As a former tech writer, the EE doc goes hand and hand with the ease of use and flexibility of EE. Could it be improved, probably. But go check out some of those other CMS systems. For me EE doc is the Gold standard.
Shoot, EE has spoiled me. I don’t even bother with systems if they don’t have strong (or at least good) documentation and forums like EE.
One more note, I do think you have to have some aptitude for “general” programming concepts to adequately use EE. If you don’t, EE might seem hard to pickup (and if so you might need to find a good HTML/CSS or minor PHP programmer). EE is definitely not MS FrontPage (thank God for that), but after some time, you can see all of the power.
Sorry guys, I have to disagree. The documentation is one of the main reasons I always recommend EE. Have you ever tried to read WP’s or Drupal’s documentation—they suck! Whatever documentation they have is not as organized or well written as EE’s.
Those who say otherwise perhaps mean something other: they expect that one can intuitively grasp how to use ExpressionEngine. Although ExpressionEngine is very elegant CMS, it is not very intuitive; in order to understand it, docs (and perhaps tutorials) should be studied carrefully.
I do not mean that EE’s docs are without weaknesses. From my point of view the biggest weakness is coverage of add-on development in docs: very scarse, no tutorials, no step-by-step examples.
Just popping in to say thank you for all the feedback, good and bad.
Learning resources are one of the most difficult things to develop for just about anything. There are so many learning styles, educational methods, approaches, skill sets, language variables (figuratively and literally), etc…
The current collection of resources does the job very well for the audience they were developed for. They have certain assumptions about skill set, back grounds, primary language, and learning style. We were fairly deliberate in their development and the feedback was (and continues to be) mostly positive. However, we’ve spotted a new trend. We are getting an influx in the EE Community that doesn’t remotely match the profile that the resources were developed for. In short, the bigger the community gets the more the original goals and assumptions about the learning resources and EE itself need to be adjusted.
2.0 will have have a significant departure from 1.x in how people are initially introduced to EE from a “how to learn EE” perspective. This has little to do with EE itself and a lot to do with how we’re adjusting our approach in getting people with a wider variety of learning styles to that “aha” moment. I hope to talk about this particular subject in more detail before launch. As someone pointed out earlier in this thread, it is a good time to have this discussion.
Couldn’t have put it better myself. At the end of the day, people learn in different ways. It’s inconceivable and unfair to expect the guys & gals at EllisLab to anticipate and accommodate each of these styles. I personally find EE’s documentation to be amazing. In all my of my experiences with web apps, I’ve never encountered documentation of this caliber for such a complex piece of software.
Some people, I suppose, need more examples and more step-by-step stuff whereas others do more of the trial-and-error approach. I subscribe to the latter. It’s always worked for me. It worked with EE. I only started learning EE two months ago and I have three sites in the final launch stages that are all built upon EE.
There will always be some gaps in the documentation. That’s why these forums, the wiki, the KB exist. If you’re unclear about something, ask away. EE’s community is one of the most helpful and knowledgeable support communities that I’ve come across. Also, where there are gaps people, like Mike Boyink, will eventually step in to fill them.
If you’re on these forums long enough, you’ll hear about the proverbial “aha” or “light bulb” moment (as Leslie mentioned). And that really does exist. Learning and using EE does take a paradigm shift from other CMS software. Even if you haven’t use CMS software before, that term carries a certain meaning. EE makes you think and analyze the relationships between content and the interplay in layout. It’s not just a plug-and-play system, which is what I love about EE. It makes me better as a web designer/developer. So, those who can make that paradigm shift will succeed with EE. For those that are frustrated with EE at first, I urge you to roll your sleeves up and just dive in. Play around with the default templates. Browse the forums. Read the tutorials mentioned here. If you have still questions, come post here.
The important thing to remember—and this applies to any product—is that EllisLab has put forward what I believe to be a revolutionary product to increase the efficiency and efficacy of building and maintaining websites. Any product, including EE, is not meant to appease everyone in every situation. I think we should all understand and appreciate the hard work to create a product such as EE and be cautious in faulting and/or blaming the work/efforts when we don’t immediately grasp the logic behind the product.
Moral of my rant: Just give it a while. It’ll sink in!
This is exactly the point. If you step back and put yourself in the place of EllisLab for a few minutes and consider how you would provide the various resources you’ll quickly get a giant headache.
We have:
1. An international audience. People from the US, Europe, Africa, Russia, China, Japan, you name the country, there is a group of EE users whose English and familiarity with English (specifically United States English) varies dramatically.
2. A diverse skill set. We have people who write code from any language one handed with their eyes closed, playing the piano with the other hand. We have people who just barely understand HTML. We have people who routinely launch websites for Fortune 500 companies and people thrust into creating a website for a non-profit (brave souls those) who have never built a website.
3. Baggage. To add to the skill set issue we have people coming with baggage loads of expectations and assumptions. Some people show up thinking EE is “Advanced Wordpress” or “MovableType +” or “EllisLab’s take on Drupal”. EE is none of those things. While certain feature commonalities and language tie most CMS/blog tools together EE is typically very different in approach from most systems. People see weblog or template or theme and that ushers in a whole set of assumptions, most of which will be wrong in some form.
4. Learning styles - You can literally get a Ph.D to try and figure out the different ways people learn. Just for example, there are some in this thread who are against the “shotgun” approach of the KB and wiki. But there are just as many who value that approach, look for it, need it. Some people learn through videos, others through step-by-step examples, others through more of a “dictionary” style lookup, etc…
Its a worthy challenge and one that we do our best to meet. We think the strategy employed has worked extremely well and we don’t intend to divate from it. But we do intend to build on it.
Our strategy is really simple and proven itself very effective. We listen to feedback and adjust resources as necessary; create and maintain a professional environment where people help each other out. That’s our strategy in its entirety.
The first part of the strategy is the most difficult and time intensive so it happens less frequently.
The 2nd part is ongoing all the time. That’s one of the reasons we can be a little militant upfront about how criticism and negative feedback are given. Its not that we don’t want to hear the bad (we do) but when its people yelling or just being snide/cynical its counter-productive to the community as a whole and discourages people from participating.
So a big thank you to everyone who has (and continues) to take the time to articulate what they don’t like and what they do like. And a big thank to everyone who contributes back and helps fill in the learning gaps, point others to new resources, and answer questions. Its immensely helpful, inspiring, and keeps us improving.
While certain feature commonalities and language tie most CMS/blog tools together EE is typically very different in approach from most systems. People see weblog or template or theme and that ushers in a whole set of assumptions, most of which will be wrong in some form.
Perhaps a small step toward solving that problem would be changing the main module’s name to something other than “weblog.” Seriously. What I’m doing has nothing to do with weblogs (though we will eventually have one on the site), and though I’ve changed the control panel to use “section,” I’m still faced with the word all over the documentation and in every template. Seeing the word so prominent in the docs nearly put me off until I realized it was (correct me if I’m wrong) a holdover from earlier incarnations.
Perhaps a small step toward solving that problem would be changing the main module’s name to something other than “weblog.” Seriously.
We’ve publicly stated that 2.0 will not use the term “weblog” in the same way anymore. Its a word that served us well when EE was introduced but the time has come to let it go
walpow - It is a holdover. It’s been a concern for a lot of us that don’t do blogs and many of us have expressed ourselves like you. But, the reality is, it’s only us, the developers, that really have to adjust to this “one” word. Our clients, authors, etc. never need to even see the word, it’s a back-end thing. At first, it does throw one off a bit. If I recall correctly, EE-2 will change some of this or offers other options. Edit-Add: Leslie confirms (above).
We’ve publicly stated that 2.0 will not use the term “weblog” in the same way anymore. Its a word that served us well when EE was introduced but the time has come to let it go
Excellent. Perhaps a memorial service is in order.
This is exactly the point. If you step back and put yourself in the place of EllisLab for a few minutes and consider how you would provide the various resources you’ll quickly get a giant headache.
Not at all. I would provide a single comprehensive documentation resource that explains every feature of the software (at present some elements are not covered at all) and a section of step-by-step tutorials that cover the basics - installation, setting up member groups, applying a new theme, etc. New users could work their way through the tutorials to create a finished site and custom features could be created by referencing the main documentation.
At the moment the information is scattered across too many different sections - documentation, wiki’s, blogs, forums, knowledge watsits etc. which means new users have to hunt about to find the information the need to do the most basic things, such as applying their own custom theme. I’m a seasoned website designer and developer but it took me days to find out how to do this.
Regardless of a new users skill level, this information needs to be easily accessed, and at the moment this is not the case.
Most technical documentation comes in two parts: references and tutorials. I can’t fault EE’s documentation as a reference. I does have some tutorials and samples sprinkled throughout, but this isn’t going to satisfy everybody. Having said that, I’m not in favor of adding more tutorials to the main documentation, because it diminishes its value as a concise reference. It would make a lot more sense to expand on the tutorials that Lisa, Mike, and others provided…
In any case, with the impending release of EE 2.0, I’m happy to take a wait and see approach until I have the documentation for the new version in hand.
The planned changes are specific to the “starting out” experience, the initial context that the basics are learned in, and changing how the available resources are introduced and linked. Once you have the basics figured out the docs become a valuable reference guide much like Markus states. The hope is to better meet the needs of people like Familychoice without interfering with the usefulness that experienced vets like Markus need.
Edit: And then of course you have to factor in that 99% of people ignore the docs anyway! lol. That’s a totally true statistic in the sense that its a statistic I made up.
