Hey guys - lets keep this on the original topic.  There are more appropriate venues for discussing other products.  Thank you. =)

I used postnuke.
I used wordpress.
I used joomla
I used personal CMS.

And then I found EE.

I will never go back.

If you’re like me, that is, you know enough php and html/css (but you’re not hardcore), then EE will be the best for you.

I haven’t found yet something I wanted to do with EE that didn’t have a solution. Yes, sometimes, you need to think differently to make it work but there are solutions.

Use the system to your advantage and you’ll love it.

Vinc’

This post is so helpful to me right now that I cannot stand it. I had been walking down the path to becoming a Joomla junkie when this recent set of events with them wanting to tighten up licensing requirements woke me up frm the trance. I hate the idea of basing my business on a open source project that could self-implode at any time (as it appears Joomla just did). so thank you to all of the people that posted their comments here.

for the record Joomla is extremely easy to use but building templates for Joomla is very difficult. I would say though for someone just wanting a site and not caring about whether the template was custom or not you could get them up and running with Joomla (free) a nice template (30$) and several components (most are free) for very little money.

I have no experience with Expression Engine but am reaching for my wallet as I type! thanks!

M.

recent set of events with them wanting to tighten up licensing requirements…could self-implode at any time (as it appears Joomla just did)

I haven’t caught the latest Joomla news…what’s happened?

The core (very matrix-y isn’t it) has decided that they want all of the 3rd part developers to release their proprietary software GNU GPL. This has made a large portion of the community extremely upset. The general feeling on the Core’s side is once GNU always GNU. They are afraid that the boogey man is going to come and take away their beloved Joomla!. The 3rd party devs feel like they are a part of the reason why Joomla! is so great. They are responsible for adding onto a pretty good core. But unfortunately the Core has ultimate control and a lot of the 3pds are leaving. This in turn means that a good portion of the widgets that everyone uses are going to go bye-bye. I may be painting a more morose picture than what it really is but I enjoyed the dynamic of the 3rd party devs and actually aspired to join them in hawking my wares. But now I am looking for something that is going to be a bit more stable. And here I am at Expression Engine… 

Ahhhh, ya, Joomla isn’t much without the 3rd party stuff, it’s pretty basic.
Of course, Joomla already has a discorded past…Mambo devs spliting and starting Joomla.
I guess I can see the Core reasoning though, that’s the whole point of open source.

off-topic… ignore. 8)

cerias, you are correct. i am sorry I was lax with my lingo. The GNU GPL license in particular is extremely restricting as everyone that builds a derivitive work (which, by the way, is defined by the author of the work being built upon) must release their code GNU GPL as well. Most people want a bit more control over their code then what the GNU GPL offers if they are trying to make a living off of the widget.

GPL is “extremely restrictive” !? Large portion of the joomla community “extremely upset” !? WTF!? No offense, MarcusNeto, but I have to wonder if you know what you are posting about.

The only restriction in the GPL is that you can not put GPL code in a binary format without the copyright holder’s permission. Other than that, you can do anything you like with GPL code. You can repackage the GPL code into your own product, and sell it, or anything else.

If joomla’s core is GPL, that puts absolutely no restrictions on anything that runs under joomla. Unless you put joomla’s core code in your product - and distribute that product in binary format - there is no problem.

The idea that anything that touches GPL must be GPL’d is 100% pure Microsoft FUD. Microsoft has been caught dead-to-rights on many mis-information campaigns (I will be happy to provide links, if you like). And the GPL FUD campaign is probably Microsoft’s greatest success.

Also, whatever your opinions of Joomla, Joomla is *extremely* popular, with something like 200,000 user. And, as of this posting, Joomla has 1896 extensions - and that number just keeps growing. I see absolutely no evidence of any large number of people leaving Joomla - in fact, it appears to be just the opposite. BTW: I don’t use Joomla myself.

I do not know where you got peculiar notions of Joomla, or the GPL, but you might want to check your facts.

Pre-sales probably isn’t the best place for a debate on the pros/cons of various licensing practices.  You might want to take that topic up in the ‘General Discussion’ forum if you’re of a mind to.  And let’s keep things mellow if you do.

No misinformation and absolutely no FUD. BUT! Definitely some opinion but that was stated in the original post. What constitutes derivitive is subject to the copyright holders as is evidenced by the differences in how the various Open Source projects handle derivitive work. For instance Joomla says that 99% of components would be considered derivitive and therefore need to be GPL GNU or are not compliant with Joomla licensing requirements. But they also state templates do not have to be GPL GNU because they do not tie in to the architecture of the system enough to warrant it. So move on over to the Drupal community. My understanding (although I am not heavily involved in that community) is that they consider anything added to the framework to be derivitive and therefore it needs to be GNU GPL including templates. Please correct me if I am wrong on that but from what I have read and seen discussed I believe it is correct.

It is pretty clear that you have a differing opinion of GNU GPL. I must say that while I enjoy the idea of open source and what it offers i still have some hesitency because of licensing differences (GPL, LGPL, etc etc). Call me a capitalist pig but if I spend a month developing some really cool widget and see that there is a demand for that widget I want to 1) protect my rights and control of said widget and 2) sell a bu**load of them so I can make some money to feed the wife and kids and further develop said widget. that is not to say that i wouldnt also be active in the community and also have a ton of free widgets and information available (as was the case with most 3pd in the Joomla community). But back to Joomla!...The current model of licensing (and I believe that they are working to change this with version 1.5) is detrimental to both 1 & 2. The stance that they want 3pd to take is “give away the software and provide support”.... well that just wouldn’t fly with me. I dont want to depend on support for income. It should affect income in a positive manner as people want items that will be supported, updated, documented etc. i believe in support. i believe in documentation. I just dont want to make my income dependent on either. and as for #2… well if you take away #1 then you really cant depend on #2 either.

The truth is that there was considerable discord over the announcement. So much so that several of the members of the dev team left to start Joomla Core Developers Alliance found at http://www.jcd-a.com/. But if you do a search for longest post ever at joomla.org you will see that there was some 60-70 pages of comments left regarding the decision or handling of the decision (some for and some against). and if you hang out in the Joomla circle for some length of time you will probably seee that there is still some confusion about what this all means and how it is going to effect the community.

i like Joomla. It is a popular piece of software. And I still have a viable service based business in the Joomla world. I believe that as things shake out and I know what components are going to be supported I may return to a more active role in that community. But for now I dont have a desire to and EE does everything I need and more without the overhead.

I am sorry if my posts offended you. i am sorry if you feel that they were FUD material. I try my hardest to not spread lies but I am allowed my opinion.

M.

Many apologies Robin… I was typing while you posted. If you want you can delete my message.

M.

LOL- yep, thread do cross.  I’ll leave it be for now.  But how about we call the issue ‘closed’ from this point.

Wordpress can actually be used as a mini CMS and even more if you know how to work it, but that’s the problem, you have to really work it until your elbows bleed, ok that might be a little drama added, in fact you can get wordpress to do anything EE can do but it just takes some effort like everything else on the web.

My only concern about EE is it appears that you have to pay quite a bit for it, is it really worth it ?

Why all the different licensing fees why not just have one for ALL and be done with it.

You have to fork over almost $300 for a commercial license then another $40 for updates ? For CMS I think updates should be included, it’s only a CMS and it’s not all that, I feel there are too many restrictions with EE, 1 per domain, stupid if you paid that much for the thing,

Oh and if you want to add a forum module that will cost another $100 ? are you insane ? so about close to $500 for starters, that doesn’t sound right to me and then have to keep paying yearly for new updates.  This is not an operating system it’s just a piece of software.

If it were mine i’d include this with EE for the $250
EVERYTHING, including unlimited domains, yearly updates or if absolutely necessary (doubtful) make it a small fee like $15 for upgrade - the forum add-on INCLUDED….....every add-on INCLUDED yes even the kitchen sink add-on, one-time, life-time fee,

now you are talking about an investment that I think would have some value to it, and you’d attract maybe everybody on the internet

that’s what I would do

I can see why OpenSource is becoming so popular, I’ll pay $250 for everything included but not with all these nickel and dime fees and ridiculous licensing jiggle. Especially when existing free opensource CMS can do anything EE can do perhaps not at the caliber but nonetheless, EE is not in a class all by itself by any means, lets not kid ourselves.

I think EE would have more value if it were made more affordable, i’ll keep tabs on EE to see how it progresses

[quote author=“gspark” date=“1187096368]“My only concern about EE is it appears that you have to pay quite a bit for it, is it really worth it ?

Oh, definitely. But why not try EE Core to see for yourself?

Why all the different licensing fees why not just have one for ALL and be done with it.

Different fees? There is “Commercial” and “Personal”, hardly very confusing.

You have to fork over almost $300 for a commercial license then another $40 for updates?

No. It’s almost 250 ($249.95, to be more precise), and that gets you one year of updates, too. If, after that, you want further upgrade, yes, that privilege costs you almost 40$ per year. Very well worth it, but you don’t have to buy that if you don’t want to, you’re welcome to use your version as long as you wish.

For CMS I think updates should be included ...

You may very well think that, but it doesn’t make economic sense. Microsoft, to give a random example, doesn’t give away Vista to licesned users of, I dunno, Windows 98 either.

it’s only a CMS and it’s not all that, I feel there are too many restrictions with EE, 1 per domain, stupid if you paid that much for the thing,

If that’s an attempt to troll, I’ve seen better. I’ve seen a lot of licenses, by the way, and EllisLab’s is among the most lenient and straightforward ones I’ve seen.

Oh and if you want to add a forum module that will cost another $100 ?

It’s a completely different module. You don’t need it, don’t buy it.

are you insane ?

No, are you? As far as I’m concerned, your style of discussion is not welcome here.

so about close to $500 for starters

I am afraid your math skills leave something to be desired. A commercial license for both EE and the forum module costs 349,90 not “close to 500”.

that doesn’t sound right to me and then have to keep paying yearly for new updates.

No, it’s an option, not a requirement. The copy you buy as such is yours to use forever.

... including unlimited domains

There is no restrictions to domains. It is only that you may not install EE more than once, but you can run multiple domains off of a single installation, I know I do.

I can see why OpenSource is becoming so popular, I’ll pay $250 for everything included but not with all these nickel and dime fees and ridiculous licensing jiggle.

You really have no idea what you’re talking about, have you?

gspark - 14 August 2007 01:59 AM

If it were mine i’d include this with EE for the $250 EVERYTHING, including unlimited domains, yearly updates or if absolutely necessary (doubtful) make it a small fee like $15 for upgrade - the forum add-on INCLUDED….....every add-on INCLUDED yes even the kitchen sink add-on

No, your list is not complete Even with “the kitchen sink add-on”. You forgot to mention another important thing.

EE is a much more complicated program than WP.

So, purchasing EE you get not only a software product, but also support.

A recent example. I bought another CMS, very cheap, I’m happy with it. The only problem: I opened a ticket on August 8, 2007. The only reply was “I will forward your inquiry to our programmers who will respond to your ticket”. I understand, summer… No problem, absolutely, the product was cheap and I like it.

But EE is very sophisticated, and the EE support service is the best one on the Internet.

Even vBulletin doesn’t support its licensed users in its own Forum. No real discussions in the vB forum, only privately — by means of its ticket support system.

So, really you pay not only for a PHP script, but also for the support, this forum.

P.S. I’m trying not to think how many time/hours EE support specialists have spent to answer my questions and how much the time can cost according to market rates…

P.P.S. If you need no support (your programming skills are advanced), you can use the free Code Igniter CMS — from ExpressionEngine developers.

got to love trolls,,

Let me tell you, if you want to use opensource go ahead, got to love those security updates.

And ExpressionEngine is a CMS that i managed to beat our company’s CMS that costs $125.000

Yes you heard right, 250k
and you whining about 250$

man, i truly don’t like cheap ass people who want all free,

try to pay for those 100k+ CMS (who i can beat the ass out of them with EE)

WP: I started on WP back in the days where Movable Type was the most popular blog solution (my age’s starting to show… ;). Its main advantages are: dead simple admin interface for your clients to manage the content, lightweight and very fast to setup a basic “news section” and a few static pages. Its main shortcoming is that it’s not really a CMS, but more a “blogging Tool,” meaning it’s built around blogging and does that very well If you’re building a blog, WP is probably the best solution. But if you’re building a website, then the time you’re initially saving will be wasted later on trying to figure out how to get the exact behavior you’re looking for…

Drupal and Joomla belong to a different category than WP. They’re “real” CMS. I respectfully disagree with some of what people are saying here: Drupal is *extremely* flexible. You can make it do whatever you want and look however you need. And it’s easy enough to customize your clients access level to streamline their own view of the admin. The template system is totally separated from the main Drupal engine and has a hook system that lets you override virtually any default behavior… BUT… there’s no way a non-programmer can get to that level of flexibility. And my main personal gripe is that the HTML/CSS it outputs was clearly written by PHP developers (no offense! just kidding… ;) There’s virtually an ID and 5 classes on every single div or span by default (ok, I’m exaggerating a little bit, but not much…). That alone makes me steer clear from Drupal as much as I can.

I don’t know Joomla enough to make any kind of useful comment.

I’m here to figure out if EE would be good for an upcoming project so I can’t give an opinion on it quite yet :)