I’m rather frustrated because I have always liked EE and am involved in a website project, which I would’ve dearly liked to see using EE (or any another CMS that’s a happy medium between EE and Drupal).
Perhaps EE could try attracting developers from the opensource community who could receive benefits of some sort (if not full-time pay) to help develop the much-needed add-on modules. More and better forum choices, plus various events calendars with neat features, and so on, would be great!
In the end, Drupal was chosen, and yet I find EE’s admin interface is more user-friendly and intuitive - easier for everyone to use. Yet being commercial, EE obviously doesn’t have the huge volunteer developer communities that Joomla and Drupal do. Still, it’s great that EE is affordably positioned between opensource and the mega-buck big boys, yet I wonder if and how EE might attract a wider user and developer base?
Could you please tell me some things that would make EE a good choice for an environmental non-profit that will feature RSS’s from other sites and will also have tons of its own information to archive, will host auto-emailers to govt reps, can send post-cards with news articles attached, and so on.
What strengths does EE offer over Drupal for a multifaceted, interactive site with campaign-building and networking features, much information to disseminate and sift through, and hopefully a large online community to support, educate, and so on.
online community, campaign-building and networking aspects
Isn’t that Drupals claim to fame? Didn’t it get it’s start from the Dean campaign?
I guess my point of view is neither EE nor Drupal can be everything to everyone and each has it’s development focus so I’m not sure “more developers” is necessarily the answer.
Love Drupal for online community sites. There are sooooo many options available. Unfortunately, there’s also sooooo much extra work involved getting a complex Drupal site running, sooooo much extra work keeping it running, plus the worries about security issues, etc., that I tend to stay away from such ‘community’ projects using Drupal. I’m willing to sacrifice a few modules or extensions here and there for an application environment that’s highly flexible for design and layout, very secure and reliable, with rapid and accurate customer support. There’s something positive to be said for the Drupal/Joomla/Word Press et al world, but in the end, I get paid for what works all the time, hence most sites I manage use EE.
Ronnie…That said, if you had to do a true “community” site would you use Drupal?
If I could get paid by the hour, instead of by the project, sure, I’d develop a community site on Drupal instead of EE.
Most of the open source CMS apps these days are quite good, but require a tremendous amount of hand holding and maintenance and processing time to maintain the same level of dependability I’ve experienced in 3 years with EE (going back to the original EE beta days). For Drupal and the like, sorting through all the plugins, modules, extensions, etc., to find out which work, which are worthy, which to avoid is a time consuming headache. Likewise tracking down the source of problems from each. Working by the project, I certainly don’t want to specialize in that kind of application and troublesome environment, and that seems to be the nature of the Drupal/Joomla/WP crowd. My experience has shown that there’s substantially less of that effort required by an EE development. I don’t use EE because I enjoy mucking around in PHP all day. I use it because it’s powerful, flexible, dependable, secure, affordable. Having used or tried nearly everything comparable, I can’t say the same about the others, including Drupal.
However, working on a hefty project “by the hour” has a lot going for it when developing a complex community site with requirements beyond the basics provided by EE (whatever those may be).
Unless you’re posting under a different account, which is quite possible since this is your only post with this user, I don’t think you’ve had any experience with EE’s support to be making any statements like that. I would put our support team up against the entirety of the Drupal community for care, quality, and service any day of the week (except Saturday :wink:) These debates about Open Source vs. Commercial and closed development roil wildly and are tired, and they’ve been discussed on these forums before.
Some reasons why one might not want to use Drupal?
And that’s just for the month of January. RonnieMc has pointed out before, however, that this might actually be a factor to choose Drupal as it presents job security—constantly keeping up with vulnerabilities and updates to all of your components can be a full time job.
In all seriousness, though, if you want to find the answers to your questions about EE, the best way is to just use it. Sign up for the 30 day trial so you have access to the support forums, and dig in. You may find that you still feel the way you do now, but chances are that you will see that ExpressionEngine is much more robust and powerful than you think—and so is the community. The description of features that you describe sounds relatively straightforward to implement in ExpressionEngine, and if something falls just short, it is extensible by means of plugins, modules, and extensions, which can often be created with very modest PHP skills.
I generally agree Derek except for a true community/networking site. I’m not sure that could be accomplished with plugins/modules could it? I mean, the whole membership/groups and weblog creation would have to be completely different wouldn’t it?
Am 100% in agreement on the EE support though :-)
PS: Don’t get me wrong, I love EE and think it works well for most sites/projects but there have to be a few exceptions I would think.
No, Randy, I did not mean that ExpressionEngine was the right tool for every job. That isn’t true of any platform or publishing system. If I had a site to build, and Drupal or <Product X> happened to be the best tool for the job, you bet I would use it. But there’s just no basis for comments that the community or product is weaker because it is not open source (read and/or comment in the thread linked in my prior reply to save from rehashing this debate here). I normally wouldn’t even step foot into a thread such as this one which is obviously baiting, but I felt compelled to stand up for the support staff, as the implication in the original post is that this is an area where ExpressionEngine is lacking, and that couldn’t be farther from the truth.
The company could be doing far more to attract developers from perhaps the opensource community who could receive benefits of some sort (if not full-time pay) to help develop the much-needed add-on modules. There need to be more and better forum choices, plus various events calendars with neat features, and so on.
Everything you mention above is available from the EE developer community. What it is not, is free. That is the difference between the EE community and open source communities. While there are developers who make free plugins and add-ons for EE (and we’re certainly thankful for that) most developers create add-ons that are only available commercially and then customized for a specific need.
We are quite fond of the EE developer community. We have some of the best programmers, designers, and business professionals anywhere. That most of them don’t work for free doesn’t change the quality of their work or the availability of help.
In the end, we’ve gone with Drupal, yet EE’s admin interface is more user-friendly and intuitive - easier for everyone to use. Yet it’s clear that EE is lagging in key areas of development (even support possibly, due to smaller numbers - ie, staff, designers familiar with EE, developers, etc). I like the way EE is positioned between opensource and the mega-buck big boys, yet bottom line: EE needs to attract a wider user and developer base.
What I’m about to say I say with a smile and good humor.
The irony in what you’re saying is that EE isn’t good enough for your project because it doesn’t have a big community like Drupal does and that we should, like Drupal, attract the same type of developer community for EE.
Yet (and here’s the ironic bit), the community that created Drupal has created a product that is clearly not up to your standards nor does it fit your needs, even though it has the big community with all the choices and add-ons, etc…
Let me simply suggest that while we share some similarities to an open source community, we have very different quality and design standards, and a very different philosophy to community and company growth. The result is a super-high quality product that performs at an enterprise level, a top-notch developer community, excellent commercial support, all delivered at a price that doesn’t give people heart-attacks.
I think whatever tradeoffs there may be to achieve this, they are worth it.
And last, but not least, we’re not against open source or trying to poo-poo it. We even have our own open source product, CodeIgniter.
Please tell me some things other than the obvious that would make EE a good choice for an environmental non-profit that will feature RSS’s from other sites and will have tons of its own information to archive, will have auto-emailers to govt reps, and so on.
What strengths does EE offer over Drupal for a multifaceted, interactive site with much information to sift through, hopefully a large online community, campaign-building and networking aspects, and so on.
Instead of asking why EE is better than Drupal, a better thing to do would be to tell us the specifics of what you want to accomplish and we can help you evaluate if EE is a good fit or if you should look for a different solution.
Again, EE and Drupal are not the same products. PXLated has an excellent point. Each has different strengths and projects they might be more suited towards. Based on your description EE might be an excellent choice for you. Its really in the features you need and whether you need commercial support and a developer community who can put together quality code on a for-hire basis.
And again, Derek’s point on security can’t be taken lightly. You won’t find an open source application that has better security and bug fixing record than EE. We’re zealots about such things.
Thanks all for the great info. It confirms much of what I’ve learned or sensed over the past few years, since I started looking around for a CMS.
EE seems good all-around. And let me be clear: I would/did advocate EE or something similar, but it wasn’t my choice. (Note: I’ve also visited Opensourcecms.com in the past and found TextPattern, Typo3, b2Evolution, WordPress to be good options (there was another one - starts with ‘Z’? - which was very good, escapes my memory).) But as you’ve said, there’ll never be a one-size-fits-all solution.
Several good points were raised. I ncan now say with confidence that EE is a good, tight but smaller, secure, user-friendly CMS system.
Also I’m sure EE has very good support and I did receive excellent help from people before. However, I’ve returned to EE’s forums on a few occasions (with different IDs, I keep forgetting mine), and a couple of times, some of the key questions that others had posted, which were top on my list, didn’t always get answered or seemed inconclusive. Specifically the issue of add-ons, eg, event calendar and another question (sorry I don’t recall). Perhaps the people who posted had made a second post elsewhere, which then got answered, yet these weren’t always the ones my search produced and which I ended up reading. I guess that’s one of the drawbacks of forums - some questions get repeated endlessly.
As someone suggested, could more community/networking modules be developed? Also there’s only one choice of forum and no event calendar. I realize the latter could be adapted from a blog module, yet a dedicated events calendar module just seems to be one of those things that a lot of community-oriented sites would want to incorporate.
These were the same concerns I had 3 years ago, which is why I was hesitant in standing behind my recommendation of EE for this website project. I know Drupal has many fans and the designer favours it.
Ok, wait I just read Leslie’s comments, and thank-you. Yes better quality control and security maintenance, plus dedicated tech support - and you’re right, evaluation should be based on the site’s (and users) actual needs.
Btw, does the EE forum have effective spam control and could other opensource forums be integrated instead (eg SimpleMachines or…)? Given tight budgets, I had forgotten about paid module options, but they’re probably worth it. And yes, in fact, I had made that very same comment to others - EE is close to being opensource, the money it charges allows it to focus on development, and the company is not commercial in a profit-obsessed way. Kudos!
Thanks for the heads-up on CodeIgniter, I’ll look into this for another web project.
I look forward to learning about developments in this area. Many thanks for the helpful info and responses. I do think EE rocks! yet I needed to be more sure.
Now what I’m basically saying is perhaps having a few more highly functional/appealing (free) add-ons may be the tipping point for hum-hawers (like myself). It’d give one a greater sense of security.
Have a good one!
-L
Note: Like I said, I now have no problem recommending EE wholeheartedly. Many of the things that I sensed have been confirmed by all of you, who at least have the technical know-how to speak on such things.
Streaml…I don’t intend this to be negative but you sound like a window shopper as you mention so many other blogging or cms tools and they all vary wildly from each other in capabilities and purpose. Just curious, have you actually delved in and tried any? Things look totally different on paper than they do once you get your hands dirty
Hi PXLated - Actually you may be right, although for this particular project I had only mentioned EE. I’ve always been a fan of the overall user-friendliness and what I perceived as quality (from the ground up), flexibility, and freedom to be creative. Plus EE’s excellent search function and multi-blogs.
I mentioned the other CMS’s because I’ve looked around and you’re right: no one single system has it all. Makes sense - each one caters to a particular focus. Apparently Drupal is loved for it’s clean and simple code (perhaps why it has a large developer following?), yet I’m not a programmer or web designer, so I couldn’t make the case for EE as effectively as I wish I might’ve had I written this post a few weeks ago.
Perhaps EE could try attracting developers from the opensource community who could receive benefits of some sort (if not full-time pay) to help develop the much-needed add-on modules. More and better forum choices, plus various events calendars with neat features, and so on, would be great!
Many from a background in these systems think everything has to be a module. Mainly because they are inconfigurable and need a programmer/developer to do anything with them.
The reason is that the site components, the html code, is wrapped around and integrated into the core. An example is menu.inc in Drupal. This file for the menu has 1,392 lines of code. Its included for the menus and from admin there are various methods of “managing” your menus.
Just adding my 2 cents. As a developer I spent a number of years, yes years, trying many of these open source systems. From phpnuke to mambo, which branched off to joomla. I found them all inconfigurable to a large degree. By inconfigurable I mean to easily modify the site to any clients wishes without having to dig into the core files.
I work with content management systems full time on a daily basis as a developer. To be able to make a living as a web developer depends on my being able to make changes using web standard code with unlimited variations, and to do so within a reasonable time frame for clients. I created my first website eleven years ago, learned to hand code, and have tried many, many, of these many times. Twelve years ago I took and completed the Microsoft Systems Engineer course. I look at the settings for the user and group permissions in EE, and see a reflection of a corporate network/LAN. Somebody had a LOT of smarts designing this system…
Lets just take menus alone as one example.
I can go to either of the two places below and drop in any css based menu into any site anywhere wanted in no time at all, or simply create my own:
yes, there are several hundred variations, then easily add more. Top of header, below header, middle of header? sidebar footer? 5 minutes. Different menu on article page? No problem, 20 minutes. Make them automatically include entries from one weblog, all weblogs, category list only, entries only, categories-sub-categories, with/without entries, include summary, any combination…minutes or maybe an hour or two.
Of course that is only in Expression Engine, because of the clean design and planning in the templates, nicely separated from the core so any web designer, anyone who knows html, can quickly create a site with no complex programming knowledge.
Many want what you see is what you get for site configuration. I don’t criticize that, but the end result is being limited to “mambots, mods, whatever they be named, which are again limited to a programmer who knows the peculiarities of “that” system. If what you wanted isn’t in that bot or whatever, well too bad.
I’m not here to promote EE. I have a business as a developer. If EE couldn’t do the job better than anything on the market today I wouldn’t be writing this, and cost has nothing to do with it.
Show me a program that costs even four times as much that will do what EE can do, rather, what is easily done in EE, and I’ll buy it and sell it to my clients. But there isn’t one.
Need modules? No, modules aren’t needed. The beauty of EE is that you can put anything in a template and publish it. Using flash, javascript, ajax whatever is wanted can be done.
In the professionals list which pmachine has are some of the most talented developers and designers around. Events calendar? What flavor> Flash, html, ajax, a combination? No problem for almost anyone in that list. And they don’t have to write a module (mods do have their place though and can be handy, definitely), They can simply add the code into your template…oh, any template, and any number/combination.
There are 34? of them on the pmachine list. I am proud to be listed there among them. They are here for the same or similar reasons as I am. EE works, and it not only works better than anything else out there, it is also by far more configurable.
In EE you don’t have to wade through a thousand lines of code to do anything wanted, and then have to worry what it breaks.
Sorry to be so long, but a lotta years of looking for a web standards editable CMS brought me to EE a couple years ago and I never looked back.
Forums? I went to drupal and counted 27 posts that were not answered over four pages.
I checked here, 4 pages-install problems.
Every single one answered as many times as needed to resolve the issue.
For myself, 2 years in these forums. # of unanswered posts I have had?
0
fastest response? 18 seconds (Hi Lisa)
If only there were a way to express the anger I feel when I try to do anything in Joomla (which is quite often because of a friend who I help out with Joomla updates and advanced features.) Joomla fights me every step of the way, I think because it tries too hard to allow users to do everything through the interface without needing to know HTML.
ExpressionEngine makes no such efforts. There are no silly blocks or regions. ExpressionEngine expects that you will know HTML and that you can do some advanced things like manipulating a form. The stand-alone entry form is crazy powerful. ExpressionEngine gives you powerful and flexible tools then gets out of the way.
ExpressionEngine to me feels like a big open room which allows my chi to flow freely.
Joomla is like a cramped box. I have not used Drupal since the 5.X beta but when I tried it at that time it was just as bad though not as cramped feeling as Joomla.
Also, what options does Drupal really give you for a Forum? The forum that ships with Drupal is not a forum. It is the same threaded entry and comment system that the rest of the CMS uses and they call it a forum. Bolting on PHPBB or other forums is not a forum choice, it is a hack.
Even though I haven’t bought the product yet (working on it!) I have had nothing but excellent support from developers and EE staff.
Based on this alone I am confident in the product. Before I heard of EE I paid a developer to create a Drupal site for one of my clients along with some instructional videos to help me develop more by myself…. Urgh!
I have messed a little with EE Core and it is great! I am now thinking in terms of EE whenever I get a new potential client and it won’t be very long before I buy the product and really start asking some questions!!
The only thing I could ask more of are screencasts on various features.
I myself have been glancing at drupal lately.And soon after i glanced,there was a security upgrade.And soon after that i had to do a fresh install cause i screwed up the patch job.Drupal is going in the right direction though it’s fan base is big into screencasts and helping out,but all of that needs to be categorized better.When i search for help i feel i’ve been dumped into an unkept wiki.A lot of old info needs to be either erased or completely set aside,erased imho.
I’m not drupal bashing though.The install is super easy.It’s very customizable.It needs a freakin forum though.If some one
man-show can create this http://getvanilla.com/ ,my favorite forum software btw,then the folks at drupal need to crank out the jams and knock my socks off.
Now back on topic,EE is developed,you just don’t hear about it,there is no fanboy fanbase that builds a buzz,which might be
a negative thing.You visit the forum one day and find out there is a new build,confetti and balloons are optional on your
part.Thats not so much a bad thing but maybe a turn off for the passer by who thinks this forum will be the only outlet
for questions,support,praise,etc.I think people get spooked by that in some ways and in a weird way some how translates
into lack of development,or this could just be me blowing generic Freudian logic out my ass.
ExpressionEngine makes no such efforts. There are no silly blocks or regions. ExpressionEngine expects that you will know HTML and that you can do some advanced things like manipulating a form. The stand-alone entry form is crazy powerful. ExpressionEngine gives you powerful and flexible tools then gets out of the way.
ExpressionEngine to me feels like a big open room which allows my chi to flow freely.
Joomla is like a cramped box. I have not used Drupal since the 5.X beta but when I tried it at that time it was just as bad though not as cramped feeling as Joomla.
Except for the “silly blocks or regions” comment, this may be the exact feeling many of us have when using other CMS applications, and clearly differentiates EE as a special application worthy of my effort.
If all you need is a simple dynamic web site that looks pretty much like all other web sites, Joomla/Drupal/WordPress are fine. They’re simple to set up, have plenty of templates from which to choose (choose wisely), and something of a support community for each. Updates are frequent (and needed), the basics work fine, the price is right.
Now, try to do something else beyond the template’s design and beyond the basic features included, and you’ve opened up a world of complexity and headaches. If you’re a developer or PHP guy getting paid by the hour, all three are great applications to extend job security and personal profitability, as the handholding and maintenance time is remarkable considering the start up price.
”Silly blocks or regions?” Hey, that’s how I work in EE!!
The EE Template system is perfect for developing sites by the piece and making them rock solid, yet easy to organize, manipulate, modify, create, maintain. I’ve not seen a more elegant development system than EE’s Template Groups/Templates. As to security, reliability, scalability, and robustness, EE’s record speaks for itself when compared to other comparable or open source CMS apps. It’s the best.
Adding a touch of creativity to naming Template Groups and Templates, then combining the two with a descriptive URL title added to custom keywords and <h1> for keyword density, makes for incredibily search engine friendly pages. Try any of that in the open source CMS apps, and you come away with a newly numbered Excedrin headache.
