The Open Source versus Commercial software debate has always fascinated me. When ExpressionEngine was first released there was a nice little thread over at Wordpress.org that a user directed me to that had users bashing us for being outrageous enough to actually charge money for a product. One of the Wordpress developers also had a nice little comment during that first month egotistically declaring that Wordpress would have all of the features contained in ExpressionEngine within six months. Hinting that it was because their software was open source with many more developers working on it.
To be honest, I am not so polar on the issue as many people seem to be…
I posted this in the referenced Textpattern vs. EE thread, but it’s more relevant here, so, I’ll reiterate and expound. Even if pMachine wanted to Open Source ExpressionEngine, Open Sourcing is Not Easy. With tens (hundreds?) of thousands of lines of code, nightmarish is a good description of what that process would mean, even if you removed all of the legal portion. The physical task would be redonkulous, and I think the product would be hurt, at least immediately, by such a move.
From the cited article:
As a result, you are likely going to have to break the project across potentially unnatural lines to separate the parts to be open sourced from the parts that need to remain closed for various reasons. And the reasons are many and not just because you want to keep something secret.
Even the “flawed” code in ExpressionEngine, and I’m using the term loosely to mean “not elegant” is semantically divided and easy to follow. The idea of having to break any portions of the application on synthetic non-semantic divisions is appalling.
Hmm very interesting discussion.
My personal view is that I use as much Open Source software as possible. Not because I don’t want to pay but because I feel OS stands for one of those last things the internet was intended for: share knowledge and use others knowledge to grow personally. Nowadays that ideal thought seems to be nothing more than that: a thought. But it’s a thought worth thinking of.
If EE would be released as OS, EE could definitely benefit from that. Since the community would increase much more it would be possible to select more teammembers based on their knowledge. Not only people who code, but also people who know how to put the product in the market, know how to design user friendly and logical Control Panels, know how to write userguides and so on…
Nevertheless, besides financial issues (which probably wouldn’t be a problem either) it’s all a subjective matter and I actually don’t care if EE would be released as OS or not. It’s a great product that I feel would appeal to a much larger audience. But if EE remains closed, at least I’m glad I ‘discovered’ it.
But… if EE would have a bit more Open Sourciness (me no speak english very good), I feel the product itself would benefit even more. The EE users have tons of ideas to improve EE, but there are a whole lot more ideas than available coding hours. This does make it difficult for the team to select which options to put in the final releases. This way we, the end-users, have to hope EE makes the right decisions and until know they have done a nice job. It’s a logical way to create software: think of something, create it, hope it works and fix it after the release. But for a rather small company as EE, it should be possible to have a mixture and benefit from the knowledge of the community: think of something, gather ideas from experienced users, create the best, release it.
An example: If EE would publish a subforum for future updates and share their thoughts on what items they want to improve in the next major build(s), we could share our thoughts as well. If I would have read sooner (and had a platform to share my thoughts) that EE wants to improve the CP in v2.0 I definitely would have tried to deliver some input. From a user-friendly point of view it´s crazy that there’s a template section in the CP, but you can’t find all templates in this section (members, forums).
On the other hand: the more people who get a chance to shout their thoughts, the more difficult it will get to start coding. After all, ideas keep coming and they’re hardly ever perfect. So to conclude this, do whatever you please but benefit from everything you created, even the community.
But… if EE would have a bit more Open Sourciness (me no speak english very good), I feel the product itself would benefit even more. The EE users have tons of ideas to improve EE, but there are a whole lot more ideas than available coding hours. This does make it difficult for the team to select which options to put in the final releases.
I think it was Derek who said it: Not every idea needs to be implemented in the core code itself. EE is so flexible, and so extensible, what with plugins, modules and extensions, that this sometimes really is the more appropriate approach.
I think it was Derek who said it: Not every idea needs to be implemented in the core code itself. EE is so flexible, and so extensible, what with plugins, modules and extensions, that this sometimes really is the more appropriate approach.
And Derek was right, but I was not only referring to technical solutions for a problem but thinking about other expertises as well. I don’t want every plugin integrated in EE, it would make things even more complicated. But if there would be a bit more ‘open sourciness’ about the the future of EE, we could support the team with ideas.
After all, they are doing a hell of a job, but they can’t be experts in all areas that are needed to develop a full CMS. I do not know much about programming, but I know a lot about information retrieval, user-friendliness and the (im)possibilities of the web, so if I could advise the pMachine team to design/structure the CP in a logical way, it would give them a headstart on competing software. And in the end it would help me use EE on a daily basis.
But I must say that it’ll be a hell of a job to sort the ideas into plugin-ideas or core-ideas.
[edit]
Another example:
In this recent topic Leslie does ask for some help, but a couple of months ago we as a community addressed the problem and were willing to brainstorm on possible solutions (at least I was :D ). This example is something that doesn’t work as a plugin, but is something to raise EE to a higher level.
I have used just about every single open source internet CMS going in the past and whilst there is a lot of good that can be said for them I do think that Expression Engine is better off being a paid product.
As it is a paid product it means that any major help that you need will come from one of the developers here which in my mind is fantastic as some products that I have paid for in the past never ever get that kind of response. I have to whole-heartedly praise everyone who has created EE and helped me out with problems in the past.
I think that seeing as how the plugins and modules are sort of open source in themselves then this helps with users creating snippets of code that can be used by anyone.
Whilst open source forums for products such as the Nuke line of CMS systems or something as large as osCommerce have many hundreds of thousands of users you can never be sure that if someone gives you advice on something quite complex that it isn’t going to mess up something else further down the line. Also if it does mess up that user may just disappear off the face of the planet leaving you with a slight problem on your hands when the client comes calling!
When I first came across EE I fell in love with it immediately and just knew that it was the product for me. As I said before I have used just about every single CMS out there, some paid but most open source and EE just hit the mark for doing everything that I ever wanted from a product and a whole heap more!!
Being able to store data in a central repository and then spitting it out wherever, whenever and however I like at any time is the utmost important factor I believe.
With a system such as EE you are able to create a simple blog in a matter of minutes yet the system will still allow you to create the most complex CMS capable site.
I have to take my hat off to the team at pMachine as they do a sterling job and I could never have wished to have happened across a more helpful bunch of people. I am happy to pay for such a product knowing that it comes with the absolute best support you can find anywhere on the internet.
Now of course if they lowered the price slightly or offered me a FREE (or reduced cost) version of the eCommerce module when it comes out then I wouldn’t say no of course!!
Oh yes I did see it and even used it, but as I said there are many more FR’s than coding hours. And in no way I have a bad feeling, or frustration about EE because I truly understand the choices that being are being made and the way working hours for the EE team are divided. Thus far they are pretty good choices, but all I want to express is that EE has a unique community standing behind their product: there’s an awful amount of knowledge at these forums in various IT-related subjects and a lot of these people want to invest a certain amount of their time to create a better product.
So all I’m saying is that for a rather small company like pMachine there still are possibilites to use that community-knowledge in a similar way Open Source applications do. Think further than just the current technical Feauture Requests, ask your members to contribute any kind of knowledge about future development. (This kind of information might even generate more sales because people will be able to see what they can expect in the near future, but that’s irrelevant to me )
Ugh… open source nazis and their pet projects… runningwithscissors walked into an ambush…
Listen… open source evangelists cannot be bargained with. They can’t be reasoned with. They don’t feel pity, or remorse, or fear. And they absolutely will not stop, ever, until you are dead (or until you agree with them.)
EE open sourced? Great, then I would never see that dang e-commerce module. Can we come up with a different word than community? I have heard that word so much I want to puke. Of all the TXP guys posting in that thread talking about community I bet none of them have not contributed anything bigger than a Chuck Norris facts plugin.
The idea that a project can be picked up after getting killed is kind of silly. Think Disney animation after Pixar left. How are the Eagles going to fare now that T.O. is gone? Would Ruby on Rails continue to be a great framework after losing the visionary benevolent dictator that is DHH.
Any great creation is headed by rock stars. Some may get paid, others may not. Really nothing is free though (economics 101.) I am here for EE because of Rick and Paul. If they were to leave and open source EE, I probably would not stick around.
Has anyone addressed the thought that EE seems to have a large number of commercial users? We have a crappy selection of templates because the commercial users don’t use templates. We have a crappy selection of plugins because the functionality we need is provided. If I really need a plugin that can convert my posts to pig latin, I can create it myself.
Also, those guys are pretty excited for a piece of software they use to build a blog that most likely nobody reads anyways. I really don’t think EE can be compared to TXP or Wordpress. A better comparison might be with Drupal, but we won’t go there because I would then have to write another long rant.
Edit: Another thing, how can people talk about ugly syntax when they have never really used EE? A trial run does not count. I have been using EE for a long time. I think I have had to renew twice now. I still learn new things and new ways to do things that makes me quicker at development.
I had the chance to use an open-source CMS, but I chose EE instead. I cannot foresee a situation in which I would drop EE for something else, let alone something open-source. To me what matters is whether the product works and whether I can use it (and tweak it as desired) without being a UNIX-level geek.
Open-source or not is a philosophical question, not a workability or usability question. The reference to “evangelists” is spot-on. They’re welcome to come and leave their tracts and their invitations to join their church on my porch, but I’ll throw them away unread.
Listen… open source evangelists cannot be bargained with. They can’t be reasoned with. They don’t feel pity, or remorse, or fear. And they absolutely will not stop, ever, until you are dead (or until you agree with them.)
Ok, I’ll bite.
Let me see if I have this straight, most EE sites are running on a LAMP platform. LAMP stands for Linux, Apache, MySQL and PHP - all Open Source projects that have given rise to the web phenomenon.
Now if EE was written in C#, and it ran on Windows Server 2003, served by IIS, talking to SQL Server, then I can take the above quote and let it brush off my Storm Trooper uniform.
Bert, I appreciate the comparison you’re drawing, but it’s largely unfair. Compare apples to apples please. The comparison of ExpressionEngine to TextPattern or Drupal has merit. But comparing it with the roots of what those are built on, an OS, web server software, a database server, and a programming language, are ridiculous. I don’t think anyone on the side of “it’s ok that EE is not Open Source” has an aversion Open Source technologies. We, if I may speak for them, simply don’t discount a tool as being the best for the job just because it’s not following a strict philosophical notion. I feel no better as a human being for choosing an Open Source product over a closed source, nor vice versa.
Derek, I’m not a Nazi or an evangelist, I’m a geek.
I did give EE a trial run: http://hcgtv.com/item/14 - I decided on going with Nucleus CMS instead and I was able to help out the project for the last two years.
Today, my efforts are aimed at Textpattern, I just like the community feel of Open Source.
Indeed, I can tell from your comments and demeanor(here and in the TxP forum thread) that you are not a blind zealot, but I thought the comparison made was both unfair and beyond the scope of the conversation. I hope you didn’t take my rebuttal as a personal attack, as I didn’t mean any disrespect.
Has anyone addressed the thought that EE seems to have a large number of commercial users? We have a crappy selection of templates because the commercial users don’t use templates.
Just for the record, I’m a commercial user, but not a web designer and I always crave new, updated, multifaceted templates. So let it be known that many commercial users of ee RELY on ee for our templates
We, if I may speak for them, simply don’t discount a tool as being the best for the job just because it’s not following a strict philosophical notion. I feel no better as a human being for choosing an Open Source product over a closed source, nor vice versa.
I agree, an open source community is great, but commercial needs do not distinguish between proprietary and open-source. In the end, all that really matters is that which relates to the totals at the bottom line (total cost of ownership.)
Just for the record, I’m a commercial user, but not a web designer and I always crave new, updated, multifaceted templates. So let it be known that many commercial users of ee RELY on ee for our templates
I guess I did cast too wide of a net here. Not everyone has a budget for web developement. I guess my statement applies more to web developers. I use wireframe templates for layouts but business branding requires a complete change of all other elements.
Well, having spent a HUGE deal of time testing the various CMS, both commercial and free open source, It seems that i finally landed to EE, because it has the real advantages of a commercial product.
In free open source, things often look dirty. You have usually a poor core and must complete with a ton of add-on, but some are often outdated. It becomes a nigntmare when you upgrade core to new version: you have absolutely no guarantee that your plugin/ addon will follow. You might end up with a broken database. Then it is up to the willing of the developer of that specific add-on.
With commercial cms, this is normally avoided, and it is easy to upgrade because core have lots of functionality already and upgrade is fully supported.
There is also an issue with documentation: EE documentation is great, you immediately get the feel of the product. With open source, documentation is often incomplete, or outdated. They just don’t care.
Another issue with free open source, is that in some case (I admit this is rare), some addon / plugin will not use the same user database, requiring your user to register again to use the addon. This is ridiculous, why use a cms if user must register several times ? This is the case with joomla and some addons.
Someone mentioned drupal cms in the post. I spent an extensive time with this cms, but decided not to go with it. I think in the future it will be one of the best, but right now it is still very immature: believe it or not, there is NO way to create your custom content type (aka weblog type). The addon in charge of this, flexinode, isn’t ported to their latest version and is admittedly not efficient, and you must use a cvs version that changes often. The content construction kit is planned for a future version (and I admit it will be very powerfull), and it might take up to a year before it becomes available. The only way to create custom content is to code node type yourself !!! It is unbelievable that at version 4.7 they still don’t have the content construction kit. This brings the point of development priority: free open cms are better geared toward developers. Personally, I don’t have time to learn php, and I don’t want to. I don’t want to spend my time fixing bugs or implementing features. On free open source cms, when you get angry because bug don’t get fixed, you are replied “fix it yourself if you are not happy”. I really don’t like this kind of philosophy.
One thing great at ee, is that it has a big community almost as big as you can find on some open free source cms. + EE seems to be updated regularly to follow technological trend. So ee seems a sure bet, although I already pointed some areas that could be improved:
http://expressionengine.com/forums/viewthread/36402/
I spent an extensive time with this cms, but decided not to go with it. I think in the future it will be one of the best, but right now it is still very immature
Everything depends on specific demands. In some cases EE cannot be the best solution—OS will be the best one. So, EE and OS cannot be compared “abstractedly”.
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If you want to create a community, you should use a good, advanced forum.
One of the best fora is vBulletin ($160). Could it be used with EE ($250, to remove copyrights)? Yes, if you buy aMember ($140 + $40 + $40). The total price will be $630.
If you use vB Drupal with vBulletin (you can remove all visible copyrights and use free vBadvanced as a portal also), the total price will be $160. Plus you get the best forum.
Of course, you can choose—$630 (compatibility problems) or $160 (without CMS/Forum bridge, the same Members DB).
And, of course, you can use EE DF instead of vB.
The total price EE+DF is: $250 + $100 = $350. Still more than $160. (BTW, Drupal will use vB for comments in Drupal CMS) And how about DF vs. vB in this case?
The answer regarding DF will be:
I think in the future it will be one of the best, but right now it is still very immature
