Plugins/Modules/Extensions! All make EE great…BUT… —————
Independant developers abandon their posts on these, they don’t keep them updated as EE changes. They create a solution and offer it up to the world freely (and I appreciate that) and then don’t support it when EE changes. BIG PROBLEM! ——-
It’s a problem for any “blog” or CMS “tool”, EE isn’t alone in this. In fact, it’s one of the biggest complaints I see in MT forums, Drupal forums (you name it OS forums)....“I implemented this, now it doesn’t work anymore”. —————
I kind of expect that with the open source systems, I mean, they are free (that implies you are on your own/and good luck)...Use this at your own risk. EE is not that. It’s a commercial product. Anyone using it (other than Core) has paid to do so. YET, you can’t trust any of the plugins (or modules, or now, extensions) listed or mentioned, to still work after an upgrade…that’s “UNACCEPTABLE”. —————
pM (Rick)...You need to certify “plugins, modules, and “extensions”!!!!!
Have an official “supported” list and an “unsupported” - take at your own risk -list. ——— But here’s the catch…if you certify the plugin/module/extension…AND...it appears in the official list on the pM/EE site, “YOU” (Rick/Paul) are taking responsibility for keeping that dang thing current and working AND compatible. Otherwise, don’t list it, don’t steer us wrong, don’t keep listing those old/incompatible things. Certify stuff. and make it yours and save us the hassle! ——-
You have all these requirements for joining your “professional network” (paperwork, etc), but you have “nothing” for developers of extensions/plugins/modules that you list on your site. You need to!
No option for “No, I use them a lot and never had a problem”?
I have no response ot the rest of it. I use several third party modules, plugins, and extensions; never had a compatability problem. I’ve had problems with EE Poll but not since KoF updated it - and that’s just one of those things with a risk, I think.
I see that I can’t now add that option…maybe I should be able to —————
LJ, no problems, ever? Then you’ve had very good luck
And wether you have or not had trouble, do you disagree that if listed, they should just “work”?
As you know, MT dose something similar to your goal. After each new release they publish a list of compatible plugins with the new release.
Even this would be ok too ...
So I agree with you, before one goes for upgrading he/she should exactly know what functionalities he/she is going to loose from the plugin side.
lol! You make it sound as if there are a rash of plugins and modules and extensions that don’t work with EE. Is there?
While we don’t have a certification program, every plugin on the site is reviewed before its listed but it is the authors responsibility to update it. If one isn’t working let us know and if the author doesn’t fix it, we’ll remove it.
There is a list of plugins that are guaranteed to work, that’s why we include them with the system. They are first party plugins.
As to a certification process, well that would certainly involve some sort of fee since that would cost us serious programmer time. Do you think a developer would pay $500 to have his plugin reviewed? Probably only if he sold it, which is what usually happens in certification processes (the person seeking certification has a commercial venture in mind). If there is no commercial market (because people expect free plugins) there is little to no incentive for a plugin developer to pay for plugin certification. And if there is no revenue for pMachine, we have no way of covering the cost of maintaining someone else’s code.
Conversely, and I’m being serious here, how much would you pay to have a list of plugins maintained by pMachine? Would you pay a monthly fee? A developer fee? What if we offered a system where you could pay by the hour to have a 3rd party plugin fixed? None of these options are being considered, I’m just pulling them out to see what the value to you really is. If there is interest in such a service its something we could look into. But seriously, without supporting revenue, there is no way we could cover the cost of maintaining 3rd party code.
So… what plugins, modules, extensions don’t work for you? What’s your hit list of bad apples? Is this a big huge problem worthy of large red fonts?
We could setup a submission form for people to report bad plugins or a way to leave comments on the plugin page as a warning to other users that something is broken, etc…
As you know, MT dose something similar to your goal. After each new release they publish a list of compatible plugins with the new release.
Even this would be ok too ...
So I agree with you, before one goes for upgrading he/she should exactly know what functionalities he/she is going to loose from the plugin side.
Hmmm… that’s not a bad idea. That could be something covered during beta testing.
There was a linklist compatability problem during a beta some time ago (not 1.4) and Yoshi fixed that up quickly. Other than the warnings that the keyword plugin garnered - no, I have had no compatability problems with EE upgrades or other plugins/modules, etc. I remember back before parse=, so one was limited in nesting plugins, but that was addressed.
I never had the PHP 4.4.1 problem, either, I <3 pMH.
As you know, MT dose something similar to your goal. After each new release they publish a list of compatible plugins with the new release.
Even this would be ok too ...
So I agree with you, before one goes for upgrading he/she should exactly know what functionalities he/she is going to loose from the plugin side.
Hmmm… that’s not a bad idea. That could be something covered during beta testing.
Thanks Leslie!
I made a tiny list of expired plugins (not broken) in the wiki before. Removing them from the plugin list would be a step forward ; )
This is a prevalent problem in all Open Source projects. Unless someone steps up to be the Q/A guru, it doesn’t get done. As projects mature and become popular, they either have to gain control or they implode.
On the Closed side, due to the monies paid, I don’t see why such a position doesn’t exist.
Bold, red fonts and bitching about how your demands are not being met. Is it any wonder the forums are no longer where I like spending my code breaks? They stopped being fun and enjoyable for me a while ago. Threads similar to this are why.
Let me be similarly emboldened with honestly. If you are having problems with plugins, modules, or extensions that are not created by a member of pMachine (third party), then do not use them. Period. If you find it unacceptable that someone has created a plugin or extension or module through hard work and the use of their expertise, and then provided it to you free of charge for whatever use you see fit with little to nothing in return…you might consider walking away from the forums right now. People are generous. They give and I am impressed by much of what they do. They have lives though. They rarely make the guarantee that they will always be there to help you whenever there is a problem. Nor do we make promises on their behalf or on our own. Simply because you have paid for EE and receive support for it and the included scripts, does not mean you get support for all third party scripts relating to EE. We surely do not guarantee any custom coding you have done.
The plugin library is there so that you may find what you need and others can give what they have created, it has never been a guarantee of future usage. If a plugin or module has failed during an upgrade, there is proof time and again that pMachine has bent over backwards to fix it or assist the developer who has asked for help. Additionally, here is a little clarifying statement for everyone, if Rick or I have developed a plugin, then it is created by pMachine and we will support it. If it is having a problem, then we will modify and fix it. I think it is fairly easy to see in the Plugin Library whose plugin is whose. Perhaps I might add a nice little asterisk to help point the way. We take no responsibility for the other plugins though. It is almost a kick in the teeth to think that by providing this resource freely for everyone that you think, excuse me demand, that we be responsible for all of them (“make it ours”? how insulting for both the developer and us). If there is a plugin that needs to be taken down, then tell us (we do have email addresses) and we will look at it and decide.
A certification program or seal of approval sounds fine in words, but it would require a thorough review of every piece of code submitted. We currently look at submitted plugins for functionality and any security concerns, which is necessary and relatively easy. If you want me to take a look and evaluate all of their code, then it would be rather time consuming. And, as Rick and Les can attest, I do not hold back with my critique of things. I would expect exceptional coding for me to certify anything, and that would require a great deal of explaining, prodding, pointing, and dialogue with developers. Great for people who demand such things from their third party scripts, but an utter waste of a CTO who is working on other things that might be a bit more pressing. Give Les some ideas though, he has a way of swaying my beastly heart.
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EE Lover - Thanks for the list. Random and Recent Comments can be axed, I agree. The Plugin List remains as it is still useful, so it stays. The LiveSearch Beta was never really finished and lacked the quality of being user friendly so I might just close that one too.
If you are having problems with plugins, modules, or extensions that are not created by a member of pMachine (third party), then do not use them. Period. If you find it unacceptable that someone has created a plugin or extension or module through hard work and the use of their expertise, and then provided it to you free of charge for whatever use you see fit with little to nothing in return…you might consider walking away from the forums right now. People are generous. They give and I am impressed by much of what they do. They have lives though. They rarely make the guarantee that they will always be there to help you whenever there is a problem. Nor do we make promises on their behalf or on our own. Simply because you have paid for EE and receive support for it and the included scripts, does not mean you get support for all third party scripts relating to EE. We surely do not guarantee any custom coding you have done.
Paul, you’re completely right and I feel sorry for the way pMachine is attacked here.
Actually, I don’t see this as much of an attack, more like a personal rant, a way of letting off steam. I must say I agree with Paul, though, it’s just not feasible to test and/or certify third party code. I use a number of plugins, and so far they all work (*keeps fingers crossed*). But for the price they came at (=free) I wouldn’t comlain if they stopped working one day. And pMachine’s certainly couldn’t be held responsible for that.
The only problem I see personally is when you ask if feature X exists, and recieve the response that no, it doesn’t, but you can use plugin Y. If that response comes from a developer or a moderator, you may feel like said plugin is being endorsed as a viable alternative, and thus you may also feel like you can go ahead and add functions that rely on said plugins to your site, without worrying that it will break with a future upgrade. Of course, being paranoid as I am, I have actually opted out on implementing certain things that rely on plugins, just because I fear that they’ll break at some point.
I fully agree that pMachine cannot be responsible for the free plugins, modules and extensions created by others, but sometimes I have gotten the impression that some features are not added to EE itself because they already exist as a plugin. And that could be risky as long as the plugin is made by a third party who may stop supporting it.
The only problem I see personally is when you ask if feature X exists, and recieve the response that no, it doesn’t, but you can use plugin Y.
Well, would you prefer an answer of, “No, and, sorry, you’re screwed”? I know I don’t.
If that response comes from a developer or a moderator, you may feel like said plugin is being endorsed as a viable alternative
Well, it is, in a way, at the time of the writing; and it comes with an implied disclaimer. I thought that went without saying.
I fully agree that pMachine cannot be responsible for the free plugins, modules and extensions created by others, but sometimes I have gotten the impression that some features are not added to EE itself because they already exist as a plugin.
I don’t have that impression. On the contrary, some of the more important plugins have become superseded by core functionality, and that trend’s likely to continue. And many of the others plugins really only appeal to a minority: as cool as the 1337 or pirate speak plugins are, I don’t see that becoming part of the official release any time soon.
Well, would you prefer an answer of, “No, and, sorry, you’re screwed”? I know I don’t.
Probably not. But as I said, I am concerned that in some cases, the existance of a plugin may discourage that functionality from being added to EE itself, even if the plugin may stop functioning.
Well, it is, in a way, at the time of the writing; and it comes with an implied disclaimer. I thought that went without saying.
I think that can be a dangerous assumption. Many EE users may never consider installing a plugin ‘on their own’ but if one is suggested to them by someone ‘in the know’, they may think its ‘safe’.
I don’t have that impression. On the contrary, some of the more important plugins have become superseded by core functionality, and that trend’s likely to continue. And many of the others plugins really only appeal to a minority: as cool as the 1337 or pirate speak plugins are, I don’t see that becoming part of the official release any time soon.
As I said, its my impression, and a concern of mine (partly because I have experienced that trend with other software). But that’s all it is.
I quite agree that there are a lot of ... limited interest plugins that one would never expect to see as part of the core functionality. But more generally versatile things one hopes will generally find their way into the core functionality. I guess its too soon, to some extent, to say whether or not that occurs more often than not. I hope you’re right, but I don’t think one can be certain.
A listing of compatible plug-ins and modules would be helpful, particularly with new releases.
Since I understand PMachine isn’t a large company, I’m surprised the developer program doesn’t include mechanisms to incorporate third-party modules/plug-ins into the product. One way to do this would be to pay the developer for the code; another way would be for PMachine to sell the approved products (while taking a commission) . Granted, most development work wouldn’t be accepted. Certain modules which greatly improve the functionality of EE (EEPoll, LinkList, Keywords, etc.), and have revenue potential, should be more directly integrated.
Just as a note to Linda’s concern of a plugin making it so that EE doesn’t get the functionality:
I have seen, since my time using EE, several new features added because the demand was high. The demand for those features was so high, in fact, that others had made plugins for them (ie: there were a few recent comments plugins, this is now native functionality).
In the last year, EE has come a very, very, very long way, and it will continue to progress. But the native functionality can *never* cover everything. Part of the reason that EE is so wonderful is the variety of ways for developers to hook into the program via modlules, plugins, and extensions, custom code, etc. But I think that the progress so far speaks for itself, and I am confident that progress will continue well into the future.
